Loose Change

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I'm talking about an event that took place in front of our very eyes, where there is physical evidence that can be scrutinized, where we have scientific/engineering models by which we can verify
or validate the outcomes of specific physical events.
There are lots of serious people supporting this, architects, engineers , firefighters that have offered incriminating testimony, etc.
For 9/11, I haven't seen much of this. Eyewitness accounts are often flawed and contradictory (as they usually are) and the science is pretty solid behind the accepted explanation. Of course there are questions that can't be tested without building a few dozen identical towers and flying planes into them but I have yet to see any consistent evidence to back up the conspiracy theories, even if you ignore the numbers of people who had to have been involved and haven't spilled the beans. I see myself as being scientific and am willing to examine evidence contrary to my views but as of yet I have seen nothing compelling.

JFK is a much tougher matter to examine since the scientific nature is limited. It is also something that could have been accomplished by a very small group, greatly reducing the likelihood of a leak (of course a cover-up would include significantly greater numbers). Several groups have done tests that show that a single gunman could have done what was done. Of course this doesn't mean that is what happened but as mythbusters would say, it is plausible. It may have happened in a different manner and some of the related events muddy the water but absence of evidence supporting a coherent set of alternate events is lacking. The 9/11 conspiracies on the other hand aren't plausible.
 

benstt

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Jan 20, 2004
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Even then, dumb luck in timing had a major impact. To add, Midway was 4 vs 3 while after Pearl, if the 2 US carriers had been able to meet up and actually find the fleeing fleet, it would have been 6 vs 2 with no element of surprise. Simply protecting Pearl from another attack or potential invasion was more important to the US than trying to chase a superior Japanese fleet.

Don't forget that Midway island itself also had a sizable airforce in the Battle of Midway, helping the odds on American side. Like having another carrier on the US side, albeit a stationary one.

Whereas at Pearl, the island air forces wouldn't be contributing much to any chase after the Pearl Harbor attack - truly just two carriers would have been stacked up against the Japanese force.
 

Rockslinger

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Apr 24, 2005
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Don't forget that Midway island itself also had a sizable airforce in the Battle of Midway, helping the odds on American side. Like having another carrier on the US side, albeit a stationary one.
Midway was also an important factor in that the enemy had to use bombs instead of torpedos. This was a critical factor when the enemy was changing from bomb to torpedos when the American aircrafts appeared suddenly over the horizon.

Whereas at Pearl, the island air forces wouldn't be contributing much to any chase after the Pearl Harbor attack - truly just two carriers would have been stacked up against the Japanese force.
I think the entire Pearl air force was destroyed on the GROUND not in the air.
 

basketcase

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Only 3 were in the attack force.
I never saw that claim. Still, over 300 planes were used and it would have been idiotic for two separated US carriers to chase the Japanese, especially if what you say was true and there were three carriers with fully armed crews who were anxious to get their chance to do what their palls on the other ships did.
 

Rockslinger

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I never saw that claim. Still, over 300 planes were used and it would have been idiotic for two separated US carriers to chase the Japanese, especially if what you say was true and there were three carriers with fully armed crews who were anxious to get their chance to do what their palls on the other ships did.
Did you know that many of those bastards wanted to rearm and go back in a second wave attack on Pearl? Their commanders chose to go home instead because, they didn't know the whereabouts of the American carriers (or how many) and also U.S. submarines were suspected in the general area.
I also heard somewhere (unconfirmed) that every pilot (except one) who attacked Pearl on December 7, 1941 was dead by war's end.
 

realthing69

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Did you know that many of those bastards wanted to rearm and go back in a second wave attack on Pearl? Their commanders chose to go home instead because, they didn't know the whereabouts of the American carriers (or how many) and also U.S. submarines were suspected in the general area.
I also heard somewhere (unconfirmed) that every pilot (except one) who attacked Pearl on December 7, 1941 was dead by war's end.
Wouldn't surprise me, I think near the end of the war the Japanese were running out of pilots...either shot down or to the Kamikaze.
 

basketcase

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Sorry, what evidence?
You might have missed the news about it. It was pretty big in the news a few weeks ago. A climate change skeptic/denier (your choice) ran his own study and found out that his own data showed he was wrong so he publicly admitted it.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Did you know that many of those bastards wanted to rearm and go back in a second wave attack on Pearl? Their commanders chose to go home instead because, they didn't know the whereabouts of the American carriers (or how many) and also U.S. submarines were suspected in the general area.
I also heard somewhere (unconfirmed) that every pilot (except one) who attacked Pearl on December 7, 1941 was dead by war's end.
Actually third wave. I'd believe the last part.


At least it now seems you accept it was the Japanese attacking.
 
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