Toronto Sun - Ontario teachers headed for court

[Moviefan-2]

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is throwing its support behind the teachers' unions, arguing the McGuinty government's teacher-bashing bill is unconstitutional.

Civil liberties group slams bill forcing teachers’ wage freeze

The Canadian Press
Published Thursday, Aug. 30, 2012 11:28AM EDT

TORONTO -- A national civil liberties group is condemning legislation that would force new contracts on Ontario teachers, saying it's is unconstitutional.

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is throwing it's support behind teachers' unions who plan to challenge the bill in court if it passes in the legislature.

It says the bill violates the right to meaningful collective bargaining and removes the right to strike before there's even the threat of one.

Lawyer Steven Barrett said the proposed law is an unprecedented attack on the civil liberties and constitutional rights of educational workers.

He said governments should defend those rights, not violate them.

The bill would freeze pay for teachers and cut benefits, as well as give the government the right to ban strikes and lockouts for at least two years.

Three unions have accepted a framework agreement with the province, which the minority Liberals are trying to impose on three other unions who've opposed it.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/civil-lib...g-teachers-wage-freeze-1.936260#ixzz253Juw4o6

I'm not a union guy but I sympathize with the point.

Why do we allow people to have the right to collective bargaining if a government can just legislate away that right in a desperate bid for votes?

 

[basketcase]

Good !

However you seemed quite concerned that overpaid teachers will not be getting a raise

First, this clearly show a view on the value of teachers that colours your comments.

Second, perhaps you should take the time to read the discussion instead of taking quotes out of context.

 

[oldjones]

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is throwing its support behind the teachers' unions, arguing the McGuinty government's teacher-bashing bill is unconstitutional.



http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/civil-lib...g-teachers-wage-freeze-1.936260#ixzz253Juw4o6

I'm not a union guy but I sympathize with the point.

Why do we allow people to have the right to collective bargaining if a government can just legislate away that right in a desperate bid for votes?

Well we all let Harper do it to keep the skies full of the People's Airline. Until the population grasps what a contract is, and how important it is that society uphold contracts, there will always be a mob howling for the King to force those folks keep doing just as before, without stopping and putting us to inconvenience. The official government term for the mob is 'voters'.

And then there'd be the parties to the deal puffing up their own short-sighted bad strategy into the sort of force-majeurecrisis that can actually justify wiping the slate to do a new deal. They want legislation to hide their pantywaist bargaining as the expiring contract starts to make their bad thinking obvious.

McG's depending on both: Parents terrified of having to mind little Tiffany and Marcus for awhile to make a point and keep their taxes down should line up behind him, and he does have to do something about his guys who signed off on expensive auto-raises, that kick in just as the old contract expires—or keeps on rollin' if there is no new one—because his cupboard is bare.

Why he imagines—like Bobby and The Rae Days before him—that union guys will instantly grasp the pickle he's in (and want to help) when it took him, his Cabinet and all their high-priced help months to see it, I shall never know.

But I do know once you start breaking your word, or can't trust someone else to keep theirs, everything good about people living together starts to crumble.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Why he imagines—like Bobby and The Rae Days before him—that union guys will instantly grasp the pickle he's in (and want to help) when it took him, his Cabinet and all their high-priced help months to see it, I shall never know.

And much like Rae, I think Dalton is deluding himself if he thinks this is a vote winner. People may be with Dalton on this one issue, but I don't think he'll pick up many new votes in K-W.

I guess we'll find out next week.

 

[JohnLarue]

Guys, if the government can take away teachers' bankable sick days, they can also take away YOUR bankable sick days as well. How would you like to lose YOUR 20 annual bankable sick days?

#1 most private sector workers get no where near 20 sick days a year
More like 7-10 per year
#2. Banking them is such a ridiculous abuse, that no one in the private sector would even dream of requesting it.

Your statement seems to illustrate how out of touch with the real word some are

 

[JohnLarue]

It already is.

You miss understand
I meant to reduce the current (excessive) pay by a factor of 2.5 / 12
Currently there are thousands of teachers making $70- 90K who have been nowhere near a classroom for the last two months

The province has paid each one of those teachers almost $17K to rebuild their dock at the cottage, this past summer

Now I would ask you to think about the fact that all of the provincial tax you pay probably does not cover even a fraction of what one teacher receives during the summer, when they are providing zero service to the province.

This is unsustainable and defiantly an abuse of the public purse

 

[JohnLarue]

First, this clearly show a view on the value of teachers that colours your comments.

Second, perhaps you should take the time to read the discussion instead of taking quotes out of context.

First.
Call it what you will, however the numbers do not lie. They are grossly overpaid

Second.
Perhaps you should be more clear when posting so that your words are not taken out of context.
Did they not teach you that in high school?

 

[JohnLarue]

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is throwing its support behind the teachers' unions, arguing the McGuinty government's teacher-bashing bill is unconstitutional.



http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/civil-lib...g-teachers-wage-freeze-1.936260#ixzz253Juw4o6

I'm not a union guy but I sympathize with the point.

Why do we allow people to have the right to collective bargaining if a government can just legislate away that right in a desperate bid for votes?

This is defiantly not about winning votes
There is a financial crisis looming for the province and even the spend happy liberals recognize it.
This is about responsibility to the following generation (ask a 20 year old Greek about that).

 

[FAST]

Not working

And then there'd be the parties to the deal puffing up their own short-sighted bad strategy into the sort of force-majeurecrisis that can actually justify wiping the slate to do a new deal. They want legislation to hide their pantywaist bargaining as the expiring contract starts to make their bad thinking obvious..

Your missing the whole problem here.
The Ontario Government does NOT bargain with the teachers union, the school boards do.
THAT is obviously NOT working,...never has,...therefore something has to be done to correct the problem,...short of getting rid of the boards,...which the Libs and the NDP would never do.

Its always easy to blame the current inflationary contract on “pantywaist bargaining”,…but your dealing with civil servant unions, and sooner or latter, some one has to say enough.

The ONLY solution is what ALL THREE parties have done, take the bull by the horns, and be responsible to the WHOLE province.

The so called contract was never signed by the boards, stopping the existing contract from "rolling over", is NOT the same as breaking a contract,...that is why no legal action has been taken, a big bluff

These are tough times for Ont., maybe never going to get much better, even the LIBS are smart enough to know that,...the NDP,...not so much.

FAST

 

[basketcase]

First.
Call it what you will, however the numbers do not lie. They are grossly overpaid

Second.
Perhaps you should be more clear when posting so that your words are not taken out of context.
Did they not teach you that in high school?

Right, they should have taught me that there are people who will manipulate facts to support their arguments.

 

[basketcase]

This is defiantly not about winning votes
There is a financial crisis looming for the province and even the spend happy liberals recognize it.
This is about responsibility to the following generation (ask a 20 year old Greek about that).

Good to see that the government convinced you so easily.

 

[Rockslinger]

Is the elimination of "double dipping" teachers also unconstitutional?

When it comes to monopolies, and public school teachers are a monopoly, governments have a duty and obligation to protect the public purse. Heck, governments regulate what Bell and Rogers can charge, they even allow foreigners to slice off the cream of the cellphone pie. So, governments should regulate what teachers can charge.

 

[JohnLarue]

Good to see that the government convinced you so easily.

???

No had to convince me
Just look at the numbers which show revenue decreasing and debt increasing
Add in the pending massive health care costs which will result from demographics and it is very clear Ont has a massive issue looming and can no longer afford to pay people to spend the summer at the cottage, let alone give them a raise for rebuilding their dock

Perhaps if you did some original thinking, you may not need to rely on union leaders to feed you with mis-information

 

[JohnLarue]

Right, they should have taught me that there are people who will manipulate facts to support their arguments.

They should have taught you common sense.
Are you the poster boy for claim that our multi- billion dollar education system provides good value?

 

[Moviefan-2]

This is defiantly not about winning votes.

It's all about trying to use teacher-bashing to win the Kitchener-Waterloo by-election.

In reality, this government hasn't even begun to get serious about addressing its spending problems.

For example, the spring budget included nearly $7 billion in phantom savings over three years. The savings were booked in the long-term projections but where is the saved money actually coming from? Finance officials told Andrew Coyne of the National Post that they had no idea.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

And don't forget the 2010 "wage freeze" that really wasn't a wage freeze at all.

 

[oldjones]

#1 most private sector workers get no where near 20 sick days a year
More like 7-10 per year
#2. Banking them is such a ridiculous abuse, that no one in the private sector would even dream of requesting it.

Your statement seems to illustrate how out of touch with the real word some are

You mean the private sector pays people to stay home sick? Never happened for me, nor did any of the unions I belonged to ever ask for it in bargaining. No work=no pay; can't be a fairer exchange than that.

What a cushy world of privilege you describe Rocky. In spite of what you imagine, it's far from universal.

More to the point it doesn't give you a mandate to declare your limited situation is the most anyone should expect or want. In fact the feds say that only 56% of employees where federal labour law applies get any sick leave at all. And a quick Google turns up general advice on how to talk to your employer to donate your banked sick days to an even sicker colleague. How we work together depends on the deal we make to do it. They're all different and the only universal rules are honesty and fair dealing.

If you never missed a day and retired with someone who was always sick and whose work you had to pick up when she was, why shouldn't you be rewarded, compared to her? And by what legal right does your employer get to unilaterally tear up the contract she made to do that?

 

[Rockslinger]

They're all different and the only universal rules are honesty and fair dealing.

Monopoly public service unions are rarely honest or fair. I'm sure others agree with me (unless they are in a public service union).

 

[Moviefan-2]

Dalton is now two steps ahead of Rockslinger:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...next-on-wage-freeze-list-says-dalton-mcguinty

 

[FAST]

The majority

Monopoly public service unions are rarely honest or fair. I'm sure others agree with me (unless they are in a public service union).

Obviously a lot of people agree with you (and me),... witness the up coming 2 seat elections, beat up on the teachers,...win the seat.

FAST

 

[Moviefan-2]

Obviously a lot of people agree with you (and me),... witness the up coming 2 seat elections, beat up on the teachers,...win the seat.

FAST

I'm still betting the Liberals lose Kitchener-Waterloo. We'll see.