Shooting at Wisconsin Sikh temple - hostages inside

[frankcastle]

It's pretty far fetched to believe that minorities stereotype more than anyone else, but are somehow less racist in other ways. Really, pretty far fetched. Especially since you have provided NO EVIDENCE for the alternative view.

Also, what--when minorities express prejudiced views they are just ignorant, but when whites do the same thing--even in subtle ways--it's racist? Come on. You can't change around the definition of racism like that. If you want to be very aggressive in applying the word to even subtle behavior, then when someone blurts out some blatant stereotype, you gotta call it for what it is.

So where are we at--so far we have a bunch of data indicating that minorities are far more racist than whites, and no evidence WHATSOEVER for any other interpretation. That's where we are right now. And you're raising these far fetched claims that stereotyping is not associated with racism, and that when minorities say bigoted, hateful things, it's just ignorance and not racism like when white people do the same thing.

I think you can just resign the debate right now, if this is the sort of retort you've got...

You just acknowledged sublte racism. Your article tested only for belief in stereotypes.

At the very least there are two types of racism right there.

Your "evidence" is based on blacks and latinos in California and you want to expand it to all minorities.

Far fetched is assuming that your observations of chinese + a survey in california = minorities in general

Like I said before I think everyone is racist or at least more inclined to believe the Dr from Yale who has studied racism for 30 yrs plus recieved awards for his work plus has been published in peer reviewed journals that about 80% of people have some form fo subtle racism.

Anyways, if you want to say that blacks in californiaa are more racist than other races you can. But that's it. IF I recall the article correctly.

If you're going to continue to extrapolate studies of a state in the US and it's findings on blacks and latinos to mean it's the same for all minorities maybe you should give up.

 

[fuji]

You do realize that the article in the economist is discussing the situation in California?

At this point I feel I've provided SOME data that corroborates my personal experience. On the other side of the debate---tumbleweeds. At this point you have absolutely no reason to believe the things you say. On the other hand, my statement at least is true in some jurisdictions, like California. My view is at least partly supported by the data we've found, and that support only seems likely to grow as we go through more articles.

They spend some time discussing specific events and things that happened to precipitate those results.

So now you're getting into WHY minorities are more racist than white people. That's good! Let's discuss that.

And when you talk about racists minorities you really mean latinos and blacks in california and the chinese that you have observed.

No, I mean all of them, but that's the data that's been presented so far. Again, on the other side of the debate--tumbleweeds. If you google there are a few more studies out there saying the same or similar things. I'll post some more of it later on. There's a study out there showing that a couple of different minorities (two different Muslim groups) had a lower opinion of each other, than they did of the host culture for example. That's not quite saying the same thing, but it fits into the same pattern as the black/latino bit. I am hoping as I go through it in more detail that they may have used whites as a control group, which would nail that one as well, but I haven't had time to read the whole thing. There are other studies out there as well--I haven't seen ANYTHING that supports your view. I have seen things that directly support mine, in other jurisdictions, and a LOT of corroboration that minorities discriminate against each other heavily.

The picture that emerges as you read through the material is one in which minorities perceive the world in more racist ways. They feel more racism personally, and they apply more racism to others. Whites appear to be the only ones who attempt to maintain the view that everybody is equal, and that race should not be a factor. (Whether they succeed in that, whether anybody succeeds in that, is questionable given the results you posted--but they try.)

Like I said before I think everyone is racist

I think racism is a matter of degree. It's not an on/off switch. You can only say that "everyone is racist" to the extent that you can find traces of discriminatory behavior in practically everyone, but some people are a hell of a lot more racist than others. Some people are so extremely racist that they say and believe overtly racist things, like "blacks are lazy and don't like to work". Others are only unwittingly discriminatory, behaving in ways that amount to racism only because they are long standing, traditional behaviors, or institutionalized functions, that haven't been fully questioned or examined.

I note that you STILL haven't provided any evidence for your outlandish claim that whites are just as racist as minorities are.

 

[frankcastle]

I think racism is a matter of degree. It's not an on/off switch. You can only say that "everyone is racist" to the extent that you can find traces of discriminatory behavior in practically everyone, but some people are a hell of a lot more racist than others. Some people are so extremely racist that they say and believe overtly racist things, like "blacks are lazy and don't like to work". Others are only unwittingly discriminatory, behaving in ways that amount to racism only because they are long standing, traditional behaviors, or institutionalized functions, that haven't been fully questioned or examined.

I note that you STILL haven't provided any evidence for your outlandish claim that whites are just as racist as minorities are.

You answered your own question. racist is racist.....there are degrees but if you display a behaviour in which it is biased by race that is racist behaviour.

"everyone" to me includes whites and minorities.

Sure, burning a cross on your black neighbours yard is much worse than insisting on hiring an asian math tutor but they are both racist acts.

I win you lose.

 

[fuji]

It seems then that you agree that whites are less racist and more tolerant than minorities are. Indeed you do win!

 

[Marblehead]

Words said to me just before being attacked by 2 black men 1/2 my age, 'you peice of shit white mother-fucker, you think you're so much better than us,' bam, one hit to my right arm with a bat of some kind, broken wrist, bam, blind punch to the side of my head, hearing fucked for a day with severe head aches for a week. I was walking out of a sub shop, minding my own business, not a word out of my mouth or a look toward anyone!
After being spit on getting out of my car, angry looking black man kicks me in the gut and tells me 'the white man must die.' kicks my car, $500 repair, could barely eat for a week cuz of the gut shot. Parking lot was almost empty, I did not come near any other car or persons walking so no I didn't piss off anyone.
So am I racist? You bet your fuckin ass I am! Every time you see a shooting on the TO news it's a black shooter! Normally against another black sometimes against whoever happens to be in the way. I go out of my way to avoid black men, I will not go to a black SP as there is normally a black pimp hangin out close by. Yes I know the rest of the indies likely have pimps close as well...
ps, I do have black friends, both male and female and some of them feel the same way I do!

 

[asterwald]

Fully back neighborhoods and countries tend to experiance more violent crime than white or Asian ones.

 

[frankcastle]

It seems then that you agree that whites are less racist and more tolerant than minorities are. Indeed you do win!

No never said that. Racist is racist so sublte or overt it's the same. Those are just your words and your definition of racism.

 

[frankcastle]

Words said to me just before being attacked by 2 black men 1/2 my age, 'you peice of shit white mother-fucker, you think you're so much better than us,' bam, one hit to my right arm with a bat of some kind, broken wrist, bam, blind punch to the side of my head, hearing fucked for a day with severe head aches for a week. I was walking out of a sub shop, minding my own business, not a word out of my mouth or a look toward anyone!
After being spit on getting out of my car, angry looking black man kicks me in the gut and tells me 'the white man must die.' kicks my car, $500 repair, could barely eat for a week cuz of the gut shot. Parking lot was almost empty, I did not come near any other car or persons walking so no I didn't piss off anyone.
So am I racist? You bet your fuckin ass I am! Every time you see a shooting on the TO news it's a black shooter! Normally against another black sometimes against whoever happens to be in the way. I go out of my way to avoid black men, I will not go to a black SP as there is normally a black pimp hangin out close by. Yes I know the rest of the indies likely have pimps close as well...
ps, I do have black friends, both male and female and some of them feel the same way I do!

Nothing wrong with being racist. In your case you had a seriously horrible experience and thus your trust of black people is shattered. The things that you do as a result of racism is not hurting or oppressing anyone so in the grand scheme of things not bad at all.

 

[frankcastle]

As I pointed out lots of people are racist but I'm not saying they are bad people for being racist. Just pointing that out in case people are getting that impression. Sorry you were beat so bad for no good reason.

 

[canada-man]

 

[fuji]

No never said that. Racist is racist so sublte or overt it's the same. Those are just your words and your definition of racism.

Well you can play around with the definition of racism, but I fundamentally do not agree. All racism is not the same, there are in fact degrees. It's not an on/off thing, like being pregnant or not. Some people ARE a lot more racist than others. Now the social justice people use this very problematic definition of racism as "prejudice + power". In that respect you could have discussions about how even small/unwitting/unintentional/mild racism, when practiced by the majority culture, has more of an impact than blatant and overt racism by minorities, because the whites often have more power. When power is included in the definition of racism you could argue that point.

So let's sidestep that issue and see if we can get agreement on the point I'm really trying to make:

Minorities are more prejudiced than the majority culture. I believe this to be the case both for overt prejudice, and for implicit/unwitting prejudice--which I think go hand in hand.

In other words, looking at the question WITHOUT considering the power that people wield, and just looking at people's attitudes, without regard to what they can do about those attitudes. It was my original point that the whole idea of social justice / human rights / anti-racist ideology had its epicenter in Europe, and that those values permeate white culture more thoroughly than minority cultures. As such I'm speaking about the beliefs and prejudices people have. I do recognize that it matters a lot more when you have a racist CEO, than when you have a racist janitor. The CEO will affect more people's lives in more material ways.

On the other hand, I think we are rapidly moving into a world where a lot of these barriers ARE coming down. We do increasingly see minorities taking up positions of power, advancing into the top ranks, getting good degrees, social status, and so on. As such, I think it's important to look at the level of prejudice there. Or to put it another way, we have been so successful in combating racism, that "majority culture" in Canada is no longer exclusively a white culture.

 

[blackrock13]

I love all these 'make believe, if-only' black on white photos from CM.

I wonder if he contacts Moe and Winstar for tips.

 

[canada-man]

 

[frankcastle]

Well you can play around with the definition of racism, but I fundamentally do not agree. All racism is not the same, there are in fact degrees. It's not an on/off thing, like being pregnant or not. Some people ARE a lot more racist than others. Now the social justice people use this very problematic definition of racism as "prejudice + power". In that respect you could have discussions about how even small/unwitting/unintentional/mild racism, when practiced by the majority culture, has more of an impact than blatant and overt racism by minorities, because the whites often have more power. When power is included in the definition of racism you could argue that point.

So let's sidestep that issue and see if we can get agreement on the point I'm really trying to make:

Minorities are more prejudiced than the majority culture. I believe this to be the case both for overt prejudice, and for implicit/unwitting prejudice--which I think go hand in hand.

In other words, looking at the question WITHOUT considering the power that people wield, and just looking at people's attitudes, without regard to what they can do about those attitudes. It was my original point that the whole idea of social justice / human rights / anti-racist ideology had its epicenter in Europe, and that those values permeate white culture more thoroughly than minority cultures. As such I'm speaking about the beliefs and prejudices people have. I do recognize that it matters a lot more when you have a racist CEO, than when you have a racist janitor. The CEO will affect more people's lives in more material ways.

On the other hand, I think we are rapidly moving into a world where a lot of these barriers ARE coming down. We do increasingly see minorities taking up positions of power, advancing into the top ranks, getting good degrees, social status, and so on. As such, I think it's important to look at the level of prejudice there. Or to put it another way, we have been so successful in combating racism, that "majority culture" in Canada is no longer exclusively a white culture.

Sorry don't agree with your main point as you have one study of California with findings om blacks and latinos.

Massive leap to include other minorities and residents of other states and countries.

As for walls Cingular down it is getting better but i want name a black ceo other than ones associated with urban clothing or music.

 

[asterwald]

I love all these 'make believe, if-only' black on white photos from CM.

I wonder if he contacts Moe and Winstar for tips.

He is just perpetuating the urban myth. Blacks prefer other races over their own.

Anyway whatever floats his boat.

 

[Rockslinger]

I go out of my way to avoid black men,

When I use to frequent Times Square in the 1990's I was the victim of attempted mugging twice. The only reason I wasn't actually mugged was because I resisted. In the first case it was actually a Black man who intervened and in the second case it was 4 Filipinos who saved my hide. I won't mention the colour of the muggers.

 

[canada-man]

 

[frankcastle]

He is just perpetuating the urban myth. Blacks prefer other races over their own.

Anyway whatever floats his boat.

Yeah seeing as there are far more white women out there than any other race (in Canada) not surprising minority men date outside of their race.

 

[fuji]

Sorry don't agree with your main point as you have one study of California with findings om blacks and latinos.

And whites. What we can say with certainty is that in California, minorities are more prejudiced than whites are.

Massive leap to include other minorities and residents of other states and countries.

It's an even bigger leap for you to make up a bunch of claims with no data whatsoever to support your view. At least I have the California data! You've got NOTHING. You have NO reasons for the things you think. None whatsoever.

As for walls Cingular down it is getting better but i want name a black ceo other than ones associated with urban clothing or music.

The CEO's of McDonalds, American Express, Merck, and Xerox are black.

 

[basketcase]

Part of the white conspiracy to gradually turn blacks into whites.