Ontario Court of Appeal greenlights brothels, sweeps aside many of Canada’s anti-pros

[TeasePlease]

I have to disagree with this. There are many people out there and would rather visit a massage parlor over an escort service. Legal or not. Just like there are people who only goto strip clubs there are many more who only use MPs. Sure there might be a dip in business but the market will adjust. To say the days of MPA are over is a little quick to judge.



Thanks


Nicole

Of course you are right, and I would count myself as one of those who prefer MPs. But to use strip clubs as an analogy to argue the viability of MPs is folly. SCs have seen more than a "dip", and the market adjustment has been harsh. It's the same market forces at play.

However, I'm not so sure that MPs will suffer a dip, at least, not in the short run. I think spas will be enjoying a bit of renaissance, given:

1. What Emily says about the vast majority of spas already offering full service.

2. The elimination of criminal prosecution risks for customers (bylaws don't affect customers, only the spa/staff).

3. The non-perving public's apparent misconception about spas (already being brothels; see the Globe article referenced earlier in this thread).

It should be good times all around at least until the various levels of gov't get their act together and/or the agencies figure out what to do.

 

[sasemohan123]

The funniest noise is the one coming from the agencies' ppl: now that they are allowed to operate legally, they have all kinds of worries and are trying to scare hobbyist into thinking the price will go up, LOL. Would they keep the "donation" the same if they keep being underground? Why not, they will not be charged now, or IF they can be why not keep doing what they are doing so far?

 

[TeasePlease]

The funniest noise is the one coming from the agencies' ppl: now that they are allowed to operate legally, they have all kinds of worries and are trying to scare hobbyist into thinking the price will go up, LOL. Would they keep the "donation" the same if they keep being underground? Why not, they will not be charged now, or IF they can be why not keep doing what they are doing so far?

The good thing about an industry with low barriers to entry is that a healthy level of competition is likely.

It also occurs to me that the regulating an industry that has been entrenched in dodging regulation for years will be interesting to say the least.

 

[MPAsquared]

A couple girls told me the reason they worked only at holistic places was for privacy & that body rub does show up in future (eg when applying for jobs)

Thats what Holistic owners tell their girls to keep them from going to Body Rubs. When MUSE switched our license, ALL of our ladies had concerns. We all as a group did our due diligence and researched what/how/where/etc that info is processes/available. From all our findings, the only red flag was if a girl wants to become a police officer, as police can dig deeper and find that info via the Licensing Office.

 

[TeasePlease]

Thats what Holistic owners tell their girls to keep them from going to Body Rubs. When MUSE switched our license, ALL of our ladies had concerns. We all as a group did our due diligence and researched what/how/where/etc that info is processes/available. From all our findings, the only red flag was if a girl wants to become a police officer, as police can dig deeper and find that info via the Licensing Office.

Excellent. Good to know.

But I wonder why just the police. I can think of a dozen other security clearance searches that are more thorough than being a copper.

 

[OddSox]

It's now just a matter of time before Dalton takes over the industry and taxes the shit out of us. The government already runs every other vice in the province - gambling, alcohol, tobacco, firearms. They're the new mafia...

 

[TeasePlease]

It's now just a matter of time before Dalton takes over the industry and taxes the shit out of us. The government already runs every other vice in the province - gambling, alcohol, tobacco, firearms. They're the new mafia...

There's a reason why they're called sin taxes.

 

[OddSox]

There's a reason why they're called sin taxes.

It's one thing to levy taxes, it's another to legislate a monopoly for yourself.

 

[TeasePlease]

It's one thing to levy taxes, it's another to legislate a monopoly for yourself.

We're Canadian. We have never been averse to legislated monopolies. Healthcare, LCBO, Banks and Telecomms (ok, oligopolies), etc.

 

[mandrill]

The govt has already stated that it will appeal to the SCC. The issue is so large that both sides would have done this automatically, if each had lost. The SCC will almost certainly back the Ont CA. This is an idea whose time has come, like gay marriages, swingers' clubs and other public morality issues where the courts stepped in an demanded the govt move forwards into the 21st Century.

It is not open to a municipality to essentially castrate a court decision by refusing to issue licences. The courts will just shit-beat the city that tries to pull that stunt, humiliate them and make them pay punitive costs as a sanction. What the court tells you to do, you do. No fucking around. The judges have ripped the balls off small-time politicians before and can do it again as a before lunch warm-up exercise before getting to the more complicated cases on the docket.

 

[slidebone]

Not at all. As a legal business, it is up to the municipality to determine what zoning bylaws apply, and what health issues arise. Currently, no municipality in Ontario has any zoning which permits a brothel to operate; that void must be addressed as municipalities are required to permit legal businesses to operate. However, they are within their powers to limit the number of businesses which are granted a license, as well as what zoning allows it.

Many municipalities already restrict strip clubs to operate in an industrial zone (except those clubs which were legally operating at the time the zoning amendments were instituted).

And because in-calls are being brought above-board, we can expect similar scrutiny of out-calls. Both businesses will be subject to licensing and regulations from the municipality, who are empowered to oversee health issues in each part of the province of Ontario.

I suppose I could have been clearer, although I spent my entire post discussing the prohibition on prostitution, and any sneaky attempts by the provinces or municipalities to get out of the court's decision. I even address that in the bit you quoted. Also, much of this thread has been about the provinces or municipalities somehow getting out of the court's decision.

However, if that is not enough, let me clarify.

Should prostitution become legal, the municipality couldn't criminalize prostitution through municipal law, and the province couldn't do that either. Also, the province or municipality couldn't regulate prostitution in such a way that they would effectively make it illegal or if they effectively accomplished what the old laws did.

Keep in mind the criminal laws against prostitution were similar to regulations, in that they didn't make prostitution criminal itself, just the activities around it. A court would take that into account and any attempt to criminalize through regulation would, I believe, suffer from the comparison and probably be struck down as unconstitutional.

To reiterate, if a municipality attempted to pass laws that accomplished the same thing as the criminal laws, or to similar effect, that would be unconstitutional and would be bound to get struck down.

The municipality could not pass laws that go contrary to the federal jurisdiction over criminal law. Even if the feds no longer make prostitution illegal, they still retain the jurisdiction to do it.

If prostitution becomes fully legal, the municipalities could pass laws regulating prostitution, but only to the extent that they weren't inconsistent with the federal power to criminalize, as is the case in all the examples that you list.

So yes, while the examples of regulation that you give are what will likely happen, if you reread my entire post, the post I was responding to, and the thread within which I am writing, you will see that your point has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

 

[puchingae]

Most girls at Asian incalls come to Canada as visitors and are not legally allowed to work. Giving out licenses won't make any difference to those places.

 

[Vixens]

The funniest noise is the one coming from the agencies' ppl: now that they are allowed to operate legally, they have all kinds of worries and are trying to scare hobbyist into thinking the price will go up, LOL. Would they keep the "donation" the same if they keep being underground? Why not, they will not be charged now, or IF they can be why not keep doing what they are doing so far?

I mean no disrespect but have you really thought that statement though?

Of course we have worries. With legalization comes regulation and that is a scary proposition. If they simply regulate agencies and how we operate all is good and I'd say about flipping time, but imagine requiring the ladies you represent to have a license to be a sex worker. What 22 year old university student do you know would be willing to have on public record that she was a prostitute during university? Think of your ATF...how willing do you think that she would be or would have been to use her real name and march down to city hall to apply for her sex workers license? I believe there was even someone within this thread who said that she probably wouldn't go that route. This is an industry about money. It is also an industry about discretion. For BOTH parties.
Now lets think about something truly frightening. What happens when that struggling single mom takes herself down to the social assistance office and says that she needs a little help feeding her babies until she finds a job, that shes been looking everywhere and that this is embarrassing for her and a last resort and the intake worker asks if shes tried sex work. It's now a legalized business is it not? Some of the less scrupulous agencies could even hold job fairs, and wouldn't career day at school be even more fun?? Now I realize that I'm sensationalizing here a bit but the fact remains that if sex workers are required to have a license you can kiss a vast number of Toronto's greatest escorts goodbye and that does indeed have me worried.

Steph

 

[Anynym]

I suppose I could have been clearer, although I spent my entire post discussing the prohibition on prostitution, and any sneaky attempts by the provinces or municipalities to get out of the court's decision. I even address that in the bit you quoted. Also, much of this thread has been about the provinces or municipalities somehow getting out of the court's decision.

However, if that is not enough, let me clarify.

Should prostitution become legal, the municipality couldn't criminalize prostitution through municipal law, and the province couldn't do that either. Also, the province or municipality couldn't regulate prostitution in such a way that they would effectively make it illegal or if they effectively accomplished what the old laws did.

Keep in mind the criminal laws against prostitution were similar to regulations, in that they didn't make prostitution criminal itself, just the activities around it. A court would take that into account and any attempt to criminalize through regulation would, I believe, suffer from the comparison and probably be struck down as unconstitutional.

To reiterate, if a municipality attempted to pass laws that accomplished the same thing as the criminal laws, or to similar effect, that would be unconstitutional and would be bound to get struck down.

The municipality could not pass laws that go contrary to the federal jurisdiction over criminal law. Even if the feds no longer make prostitution illegal, they still retain the jurisdiction to do it.

If prostitution becomes fully legal, the municipalities could pass laws regulating prostitution, but only to the extent that they weren't inconsistent with the federal power to criminalize, as is the case in all the examples that you list.

So yes, while the examples of regulation that you give are what will likely happen, if you reread my entire post, the post I was responding to, and the thread within which I am writing, you will see that your point has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

You clearly have never tried to get a strip club license, or any adult entertainment license, even though strip clubs have been legal for decades. So I won't waste my time addressing your post further.

 

[wetnose]

Most girls at Asian incalls come to Canada as visitors and are not legally allowed to work. Giving out licenses won't make any difference to those places.

Well if they have licenses, it means they're open to inspection, just like a restaurant.

If the city is on the ball and sets up surprise inspections, maybe the problem of girls illegally working can finally disappear.

If they don't have a license, then they're also open to automatic shutdown...just like a restaurant. Would you go to an unlicensed, uninspected restaurant?

 

[afterhours]

Well if they have licenses, it means they're open to inspection, just like a restaurant.

If the city is on the ball and sets up surprise inspections, maybe the problem of girls illegally working can finally disappear.

If they don't have a license, then they're also open to automatic shutdown...just like a restaurant. Would you go to an unlicensed, uninspected restaurant?

no but I would stick my dick into unlicensed pussy!

 

[Fred Zed]

You clearly have never tried to get a strip club license, or any adult entertainment license, even though strip clubs have been legal for decades. So I won't waste my time addressing your post further.

I mean no disrespect but have you really thought that statement though?

Of course we have worries. With legalization comes regulation and that is a scary proposition. If they simply regulate agencies and how we operate all is good and I'd say about flipping time, but imagine requiring the ladies you represent to have a license to be a sex worker. What 22 year old university student do you know would be willing to have on public record that she was a prostitute during university? Think of your ATF...how willing do you think that she would be or would have been to use her real name and march down to city hall to apply for her sex workers license? I believe there was even someone within this thread who said that she probably wouldn't go that route. This is an industry about money. It is also an industry about discretion. For BOTH parties.
Now lets think about something truly frightening. What happens when that struggling single mom takes herself down to the social assistance office and says that she needs a little help feeding her babies until she finds a job, that shes been looking everywhere and that this is embarrassing for her and a last resort and the intake worker asks if shes tried sex work. It's now a legalized business is it not? Some of the less scrupulous agencies could even hold job fairs, and wouldn't career day at school be even more fun?? Now I realize that I'm sensationalizing here a bit but the fact remains that if sex workers are required to have a license you can kiss a vast number of Toronto's greatest escorts goodbye and that does indeed have me worried.

Steph

I think in Alberta an escort license is required to work in that province. However, I also know many ladies
who have worked there without one. I would imagine many ladies would be able to get by without a license.

 

[MattRoxx]

It's really going to put a damper on the mood when you put down an envelope...and are handed a receipt with a breakdown of the fee and applicable taxes.

 

[TeasePlease]

It's really going to put a damper on the mood when you put down an envelope...and are handed a receipt with a breakdown of the fee and applicable taxes.

This already happens, or is supposed to happen, at massage parlors.

I mean no disrespect but have you really thought that statement though?

Of course we have worries. With legalization comes regulation and that is a scary proposition. If they simply regulate agencies and how we operate all is good and I'd say about flipping time, but imagine requiring the ladies you represent to have a license to be a sex worker. What 22 year old university student do you know would be willing to have on public record that she was a prostitute during university? Think of your ATF...how willing do you think that she would be or would have been to use her real name and march down to city hall to apply for her sex workers license? I believe there was even someone within this thread who said that she probably wouldn't go that route. This is an industry about money. It is also an industry about discretion. For BOTH parties.
Now lets think about something truly frightening. What happens when that struggling single mom takes herself down to the social assistance office and says that she needs a little help feeding her babies until she finds a job, that shes been looking everywhere and that this is embarrassing for her and a last resort and the intake worker asks if shes tried sex work. It's now a legalized business is it not? Some of the less scrupulous agencies could even hold job fairs, and wouldn't career day at school be even more fun?? Now I realize that I'm sensationalizing here a bit but the fact remains that if sex workers are required to have a license you can kiss a vast number of Toronto's greatest escorts goodbye and that does indeed have me worried.

Steph

Thank you for your thoughts and adding a thoughtful perspective to this discourse. I don't think your concerns are sensationalist. They exist in the massage world - holistic vs bodyrubber licenses.

We all know are are bent on making your pooning and acceptable and normal, but the fact is, it isn't. As one lady put it to me recently, buying sex still isn't something you'd bring up in casual conversation at a dinner party

 

[eqtrader]

That really does sound scary. Imagine how many girls would leave if that happens.

I mean no disrespect but have you really thought that statement though?

Of course we have worries. With legalization comes regulation and that is a scary proposition. If they simply regulate agencies and how we operate all is good and I'd say about flipping time, but imagine requiring the ladies you represent to have a license to be a sex worker. What 22 year old university student do you know would be willing to have on public record that she was a prostitute during university? Think of your ATF...how willing do you think that she would be or would have been to use her real name and march down to city hall to apply for her sex workers license? I believe there was even someone within this thread who said that she probably wouldn't go that route. This is an industry about money. It is also an industry about discretion. For BOTH parties.
Now lets think about something truly frightening. What happens when that struggling single mom takes herself down to the social assistance office and says that she needs a little help feeding her babies until she finds a job, that shes been looking everywhere and that this is embarrassing for her and a last resort and the intake worker asks if shes tried sex work. It's now a legalized business is it not? Some of the less scrupulous agencies could even hold job fairs, and wouldn't career day at school be even more fun?? Now I realize that I'm sensationalizing here a bit but the fact remains that if sex workers are required to have a license you can kiss a vast number of Toronto's greatest escorts goodbye and that does indeed have me worried.

Steph