Attawapiskat, The Conservative Governments Response To This Emergency......

[oldjones]

Just a notion: Attawapiskat's in a treeless wasteland—to my southern cityboy's eyes at least—thousands of miles from the nearest urban centre. If the problems—which seem to be centred on housing—are so easily addressed, it shouldn't take long for a TERBexpert to point to a housing design suitable for building and maintaining at reasonable cost 'way up there'.

But if you need to buy—with money from what job or business—a tube of caulking, how far to the nearest Home Hardware? And when the shingles start blowing off the windward slope of your roof? And when did the roofer come by last to say, "Those shingles aren't gonna see you through another winter"?

What I see is totally inappropriate building forms for the environment and location. After more than a hundred years of 'looking after' our aboriginal peoples, I'd have thought the Department would have come up with a decent standard house design, that the local folk could build and maintain.

They were doing reasonably well before we came along and screwed things up for them. Time to listen, not dictate.

 

[blackrock13]

Just a notion: Attawapiskat's in a treeless wasteland—to my southern cityboy's eyes at least—thousands of miles from the nearest urban centre. If the problems—which seem to be centred on housing—are easily addressed, it shouldn't take long for a TERBexpert to poinbt to a housing design suitable for building and maintaining at reasonable cost 'way up there'.

But if you need to buy—with money from what job or business—a tube of caulking, how far to the nearest Home Hardware? And when the shingles start blowing off the windward slope of your roof? And when did the roofer come by last to say, "Those shingles aren't gonna see you through another winter"?

What I see is totally inappropriate building forms for the environment and location. After more than a hundred years of 'looking after' our aboriginal peoples, I'd have thought the Department would have come up with a decent standard house design, that the local folk could build and maintain.

There is nothing but trees, bush, and wildlife in that area of James Bay; oh and diamonds and 'lots' of mineral ores. It's only a 12 day dog sled ride from Cochrane, downhill most of the way. What's your problem?

As for designing proper housing, even Mike Holmes has piped in, but no one in Ottawa will listen to him. What the hell does he know?

Stop building junk on reserves, says Mike Holmes - Canada - CBC ...


Start building houses “fresh” in Attawapiskat: Mike Holmes | APTN ...

 

[Cassini]

Just a notion: Attawapiskat's in a treeless wasteland—to my southern cityboy's eyes at least—thousands of miles from the nearest urban centre. If the problems—which seem to be centred on housing—are easily addressed, it shouldn't take long for a TERBexpert to poinbt to a housing design suitable for building and maintaining at reasonable cost 'way up there'.

...

What I see is totally inappropriate building forms for the environment and location. After more than a hundred years of 'looking after' our aboriginal peoples, I'd have thought the Department would have come up with a decent standard house design, that the local folk could build and maintain.

There is no good housing solution for those Northerly latitudes. With no trees, no local supply of materials exists. Also, the weather is hell on the buildings. Even brick and stonework is unreliable at those latitudes.

Essentially, unless you are a mine or an oil company (or the government), no one can finance the costs of living up there. The results is very poor people (either Indian or white folk), and poor living conditions.

You don't have to go very far outside of major cities to see similar effects. Go to remoter regions of Muskoka. The local's houses are poor shacks. People that own businesses and have money from outside the community live in paradise by comparison. All the same issues with sewage and well water exist. Maintaining good well water and sewage is expensive in remote areas.

Muskoka is accessible by road, and is much further south than some of these Northerly Indian communities. Supplies are readily accessible. Thus conditions are much worse in the more remote communities, where supplies are much less accessible.

Given that reality, we have no method of inexpensively housing people in Northern communities at standards remotely similar to the supports available to the homeless in Toronto. Seriously, you have a much better chance of getting off of the streets in Toronto, than to achieve a good standard of living in some of those remote towns and reserves where no natural industry exists and government funding is limited.

Yes, we can give the Indians more housing, however without the economic supports a modern city provides, the houses will not last 5 years in good condition.

 

[blackrock13]

There is no good housing solution for those Northerly latitudes. With no trees, no local supply of materials exists. Also, the weather is hell on the buildings. Even brick and stonework is unreliable at those latitudes.

Essentially, unless you are a mine or an oil company (or the government), no one can finance the costs of living up there. The results is very poor people (either Indian or white folk), and poor living conditions.

You don't have to go very far outside of major cities to see similar effects. Go to remoter regions of Muskoka. The local's houses are poor shacks. People that own businesses and have money from outside the community live in paradise by comparison. All the same issues with sewage and well water exist. Maintaining good well water and sewage is expensive in remote areas.

Muskoka is accessible by road, and is much further south than some of these Northerly Indian communities. Supplies are readily accessible. Thus conditions are much worse in the more remote communities, where supplies are much less accessible.

Given that reality, we have no method of inexpensively housing people in Northern communities at standards remotely similar to the supports available to the homeless in Toronto. Seriously, you have a much better chance of getting off of the streets in Toronto, than to achieve a good standard of living in some of those remote towns and reserves where no natural industry exists and government funding is limited.

Yes, we can give the Indians more housing, however without the economic supports a modern city provides, the houses will not last 5 years in good condition.

You might want to check your facts, please.

Virtually everything needed, in these communities, to construct homes from scratch has to be flown in or brought in by boat/barge or ship, costing mega bucks. The majority of local trees, spruce, birch, and pine, aren't suitable for construction; log cabins aside. It's not the reliability of brick or stone, you are talking the Canadian Shield here, works that keep it from getting used. It's the cost of shipping it that makes it prohibitive. In the large capital city of Whitehorse I don't remember seeing a single home built with stone or brick and most office buildings or stores are much the same. If you want to use the local rock you still have to quarry it. Most of the road repairs are done by using the local substrate that works quite well, except for about a 200 km stretch of the Dempster which is paved with the local shale, you figure it out. That stretch accounts for 90% of the flat tires on the 700 km highway, with only one place to fix them that close, Eagle Plains.


Most of the homes in the remote communities aren't much better than a double wide construction hut, virtually mandated by Ottawa. You try living in that for a year or two and see how you like it. It's true that hese aren't built for longevity but there are residences that have survive much longer than a few years.

There are hundreds of small communities that have no direct ties to mining or oil. The men and women who want to/can work in those industries go to the work away from home. Then come home when it time to hunt and fish, either out of need or tradition.

 

[oldjones]

Like others who say, "They're responsible for how they live" where there are no resources or services to sustain them, Cassini seems to be saying all those northern reserve folks should come south and live here in Toronto, where there are.

We made it impossible for them to continue a way of life that had sustained them efficiently and as they chose for hundreds if not thousands of years. having busted their system, it's our responsibility to replace it with something that works even sorta kinda as good as what they had.

Here's a thought. In Ottawa the feds have a National Research Council, and it has—or had—a Division of Building Research. Howcum with ou claim to the high Arctic all the way to the Pole, Canada is not a leader in frigid climate house design? We even have a captive test population.

 

[blackrock13]

Like others who say, "They're responsible for how they live" where there are no resources or services to sustain them, Cassini seems to be saying all those northern reserve folks should come south and live here in Toronto, where there are.

We made it impossible for them to continue a way of life that had sustained them efficiently and as they chose for hundreds if not thousands of years. having busted their system, it's our responsibility to replace it with something that works even sorta kinda as good as what they had.

Here's a thought. In Ottawa the feds have a National Research Council, and it has—or had—a Division of Building Research. Howcum with ou claim to the high Arctic all the way to the Pole, Canada is not a leader in frigid climate house design? We even have a captive test population.

You can build houses that would do very well in the north, far north, and the Arctic, but it's the cost of getting them there. Remember, a simple single family bungalow will cost $400,000 or more to build up there and OTTAWA are tightwads and the neanderthal core Reform party members are the worst. Other simple building techniques that are very affective against the weather such as having your single exit man doors, open outward are I believe against code in Canada, but do a great job in the Scandinavian countries, Iceland and Greenland, where IRC it gets really cold. These home are toasty warm and very comfortable.

This is Nuuk feakin' Greenland folks and the houses your looking at were mostly built in the 50's. The Danes do know how to it right sometimes.

 

[OddSox]

We also should remember that the media is having fun with this - the shacks we see on the news aren't the whole story - there are some nice buildings in the area and it's not really a 'treeless wasteland'.

http://www.pbase.com/paullantz/attawapiskat&page=1

 

[blackrock13]

We also should remember that the media is having fun with this - the shacks we see on the news aren't the whole story - there are some nice buildings in the area and it's not really a 'treeless wasteland'.

http://www.pbase.com/paullantz/attawapiskat&page=1

Nice picture of the school that was condemned 10 years ago and closed.

 

[slowandeasy]

Terrible world play, Sorry but I could not resist. There are some/many people who do not realize that this is an insult to Aboriginals.
.

 

[slowandeasy]

They Cdn Govt does not routinely seize their traps. We barely have the manpower to track down murderers, and there is no money in stopping them from trapping.


The choices they had were not fair, but life is not fair. Fuji, do you realize that the different tribes were at war before the Europeans landed? That they were slaughering each other long before??? That lands had changed hands many times already?
Having said that, they were given a choice and an opportunity to live. Its time to stop living in the past.

They are not allowed to own their own homes on the reserves. They are allowed to own whatever they want off the reserve.

 

[slowandeasy]

They were doing reasonably well before we came along and screwed things up for them. Time to listen, not dictate.

Oldjones, the aboriginals in Canada were not doing that well before we came along. The tribes were at war and they treated each other
with little respect when one tribe conquered another.

I agree with you that they have housing problems that should be fixed... The responsibility for this should be their band council and/or their local MP.
Didn't we just learn that one chief in a small band was making more money than our PM???

I think that this problem is so entrenched in the bureaucratic system, that there is no end in sight. In the mean time, the poor people in these communities will pay the ultimate price. We are all standing by watching this train wreck happen, but no one knows what we should do, and many of the people who can help are doing the opposite.

 

[Garrett]

Oldjones, the aboriginals in Canada were not doing that well before we came along. The tribes were at war and they treated each other
with little respect when one tribe conquered another.

Most of the people here are watching Dances With Wolves too much.

Bottom line is native self government does not work. They do not want to be held to a higher standard. All they want is more money, and white guilt still makes for good headlines.

I have natives in my family (some on reserve, some off). They are far more critical of self government than I have ever been (choose your target... financial abuse, sexual abuse, drug abuse). There is no doubt they need help. But letting them set the terms is like putting a crack addict in charge of their rehabilitation (aka "just one more hit and then I will get clean...").

 

[slowandeasy]

Most of the people here are watching Dances With Wolves too much.

Bottom line is native self government does not work. They do not want to be held to a higher standard. All they want is more money, and white guilt still makes for good headlines.

I have natives in my family (some on reserve, some off). They are far more critical of self government than I have ever been (choose your target... financial abuse, sexual abuse, drug abuse). There is no doubt they need help. But letting them set the terms is like putting a crack addict in charge of their rehabilitation (aka "just one more hit and then I will get clean...").

Nicely put. I partied on a few reserves over the years. Met some great people. The thing that really struck me was that even many of those great people still had the opinion that Canada owed them, and that they deserved better or that the reason they are in the position they are in was because they were being screwed by 'white men'. The one person that really shocked me was a McGill educated young lady who was on the band council. Drove a brand new 4x4, told me she was making $42k/year (this was 8 years ago), paid no taxes, and told me that even the immigrants were being treated better than Aboriginals. She was pregnant at the time, had just downed 7 or 8 beers with me, and had 3 kids under 8 years old at home. We got to her house, and her 15 year old babysitter was passed out drunk on her sofa. Hmmmmm.....

Still, we (our government and society) has screwed up way too much. If I remember correctly there is a huge building in Ottawa filled with people who are responsible for overseeing the money and affiars of our Aboriginal People. After that you have the band council themselves who are supposed to filter that money to their people. Seems like alot of pigs at the trough to me!!!!!!

Like the black people who complain that they are being racially profiled for murders, like the East Indians who complain about being called smelly, like the chinese who can't drive, like the older white man who is profiled as a pedophile, it's time for the aboriginal people and its leaders to show that they are willing to do something about it rather than complain and blame everyone else.

 

[oldjones]

Oldjones, the aboriginals in Canada were not doing that well before we came along. The tribes were at war and they treated each other
with little respect when one tribe conquered another.

Just like us. Back then and right up until the present. Still going on; says nothing about aboriginals, but a great deal about human beings. Irrelevant to housing in any case, which is the point at issue and the core of the crisis. As far as I know the aboriginal peoples had figured out housing technology that suited their nomadic way of life better than the stuff that 'more advanced' Europeans kept trying to use in the north. Trouble was, we made sure they couldn't continue their old ways, and completely screwed up every time we forced some new way on them.

I agree with you that they have housing problems that should be fixed... The responsibility for this should be their band council and/or their local MP.
Didn't we just learn that one chief in a small band was making more money than our PM???

The fact that the PM is absurdly underpaid compared to most CEOs and more than one Mayor, Reeve or Chief says nothing about anyone's skill, intelligence or aptitude for their job. In a community of 2,300 with undependable school staffing and the nearest university thousands of miles away, how big do you suppose the talent pool is? But thanks to the fine support in depth from the Department, the locals have been kept out of any long-term trouble [sarcasm alert] In fact if the local councils had had as long as we have had, to run their own affairs without being dictated to by ignorant, biased, unscrupulous foreigners, they might be a good at it as we are. But then I consider we elected the current Mayor of Toronto. The responsibility should have been the Band Council and Chief's but it is, as it has been since Confederation, the responsibility of the Crown. Which refuses to give it up or share it on any equitable basis. Why do you think we still have unsettled land claims going back to the XVIIIth century?

I think that this problem is so entrenched in the bureaucratic system, that there is no end in sight. In the mean time, the poor people in these communities will pay the ultimate price. We are all standing by watching this train wreck happen, but no one knows what we should do, and many of the people who can help are doing the opposite.

Where else do we routinely deny citizens the right and power to make their own decisions, requiring them to get approval from nameless faceless bureaucrats comfortably living a lifetstyle thousands of miles and years removed from the people they dictate to. Bureaucrats who let all manner of slow-moving disasters overwhelm their charges without taking the slightest responsibility for their messes or the money they wasted allowing them to happen? Bureaucrats who—unlike the Chief (ore even the Minister) become nameless and invisible when there is a crisis.

How could it be worse if we simply abolished the Department that tells them where they must live, that builds them the bad housing and the defective water plants and just gave the people their money direct?

 

[oldjones]

You can build houses that would do very well in the north, far north, and the Arctic, but it's the cost of getting them there. Remember, a simple single family bungalow will cost $400,000 or more to build up there and OTTAWA are tightwads and the neanderthal core Reform party members are the worst. Other simple building techniques that are very affective against the weather such as having your single exit man doors, open outward are I believe against code in Canada, but do a great job in the Scandinavian countries, Iceland and Greenland, where IRC it gets really cold. These home are toasty warm and very comfortable.

This is Nuuk feakin' Greenland folks and the houses your looking at were mostly built in the 50's. The Danes do know how to it right sometimes.

Thanks for that; very instructive. We should remember the first time the Norse tried to colonize Greenland they failed and entirely died out after 500 years of slow decline. They persisted in trying to live as if they were back home in Norway and Denmark. The Innuit neighbours they despised continued to thrive on a diet, and in housing that was part of their environment instead of hostile to it.

I recall an earlier CBC expose about toxic insulation in Indian Affairs housing. Vermiculite contaminated with asbestos, loose-filled in attic spaces, wasting the space under the roof, and of course requiring the house to be evacuated to remove it. Can't imagine any thoughtful local thinking importing that incompressable stuff was smarter than squished-down bundles of Fiberglas™. And if ever there was a place where factory-built solid-insulated panels could be useful…. Given the various circum-polar contacts among Innuit we may yet see some useful info-exchange.

But of course, as you said, the Innuit have had to do without the benefits of the Dept of Indian Affairs. unlike the fortunate folks in Attawapiskat

 

[blackrock13]

Just like us. Back then and right up until the present. Still going on; says nothing about aboriginals, but a great deal about human beings. Irrelevant to housing in any case, which is the point at issue and the core of the crisis. As far as I know the aboriginal peoples had figured out housing technology that suited their nomadic way of life better than the stuff that 'more advanced' Europeans kept trying to use in the north. Trouble was, we made sure they couldn't continue their old ways, and completely screwed up every time we forced some new way on them.

The fact that the PM is absurdly underpaid compared to most CEOs and more than one Mayor, Reeve or Chief says nothing about anyone's skill, intelligence or aptitude for their job. In a community of 2,300 with undependable school staffing and the nearest university thousands of miles away, how big do you suppose the talent pool is? But thanks to the fine support in depth from the Department, the locals have been kept out of any long-term trouble [sarcasm alert] In fact if the local councils had had as long as we have had, to run their own affairs without being dictated to by ignorant, biased, unscrupulous foreigners, they might be a good at it as we are. But then I consider we elected the current Mayor of Toronto. The responsibility should have been the Band Council and Chief's but it is, as it has been since Confederation, the responsibility of the Crown. Which refuses to give it up or share it on any equitable basis. Why do you think we still have unsettled land claims going back to the XVIIIth century?

Where else do we routinely deny citizens the right and power to make their own decisions, requiring them to get approval from nameless faceless bureaucrats comfortably living a lifetstyle thousands of miles and years removed from the people they dictate to. Bureaucrats who let all manner of slow-moving disasters overwhelm their charges without taking the slightest responsibility for their mess or the money they wasted allowing it to happen?

How could it be worse if we simply abolished the Department that tells them where they must live, builds them the bad housing and defective water plants just gave the people their money direct?

The housing crisis is not the core of the crisis but is the manifestation of the crisis. Housing does't cause the level of family abuse, drug and alcohol abuse and chronic social disfunction.

Are you saying they should still be living in wigwams and igloos, follow the game around and hunt and fish for their existence. Here the problem. There is anywhere near the amount of fish and game that there was perhaps 60 years ago, thanks to modern society. They use to starve back them when there was a bad year. Are you saying, meh, that's life?

I wish I could understand what you were trying to say in the second paragraph.

It's not that Aboriginal Affairs exists that is the problem. It that it has the attitude that it does and all parties in power in Ottawa AND many of the power bases in the various as well. You find in a large number of Bands certain families have the power and carry this power really deeply for a long time. I guess that makes it no different than the main stream Canada.

We've push them into a corner surround them with a modern world and now your saying the answer is to let them do it themselves, sink or swim. Did you pull the wings off of flies as a kid?

 

[blackrock13]

Thanks for that; very instructive. We should remember the first time the Norse tried to colonize Greenland they failed and entirely died out after 500 years of slow decline. They persisted in trying to live as if they were back home in Norway and Denmark. The Innuit neighbours they despised continued to thrive on a diet, and in housing that was part of their environment instead of hostile to it.

I recall an earlier CBC expose about toxic insulation in Indian Affairs housing. Vermiculite contaminated with asbestos, loose-filled in attic spaces, wasting the space under the roof, and of course requiring the house to be evacuated to remove it. Can't imagine any thoughtful local thinking importing that incompressable stuff was smarter than squished-down bundles of Fiberglas™. And if ever there was a place where factory-built solid-insulated panels could be useful…. Given the various circum-polar contacts among Innuit we may yet see some useful info-exchange.

But of course, as you said, the Innuit have had to do without the benefits of the Dept of Indian Affairs. unlike the fortunate folks in Attawapiskat

To be more correct the Innuit of Greenland haven't had to deal with AA. The same people in Canada have had the same problems as the Dene/Cree. Look into problems of Gros Fiord in the high Arctic. Another fine example the white man thinking he knew better than the locals. Two of the greatest arctic explorers, John Rae (who?, look him up and learn) and Roald Ammundson learned very quickly to use the knowledge base and practices of the locals and survive and thrive in the Arctic, discovering vast areas of the arctic that failures such as Perry and Franklin, and their supporters in the US and British governments never did.

 

[larry]

remember Bill Cosby and american blacks? similar situation here. the chiefs have a vested interest. it's too bad they are sacrificing their women and young.

 

[blackrock13]

remember Bill Cosby and american blacks? similar situation here. the chiefs have a vested interest. it's too bad they are sacrificing their women and young.

What? You know this how? Would you mind expanding on that idiot comment? What's their vested interested?

I know that's 4 question for you at one time and you might not be able to handle the workload , so take your tie and answer them one at at a time.

 

[Mervyn]

most likely a thread on terb won't change anything but it's obvious only a few sympathize with the plight of those indians up north. as long as they want to run their own society, on our money, abuses will happen. when they are willing to move into a bit more modern world, i.e.: no more "chiefs", they'll begin to prosper. it's almost impossible to do badly with billions of dollars yearly but they are very successful at that.

another thought, seldom raised, is that long ago our white fore-fathers thought of a way to keep the indian population from integrating. "let's give them money and tell them where to live". there are other cultures that are welfare hounds. they never prosper. to succeed, their young men have to leave the fold. this is very hard to do.

No need to get rid of chief's they have their role in the culture and they can use whatever method of selecting a chief they see fit. But for all administrative duties they should elect a Mayor and a council ever 4-5 years or so. And any government monies that goes to a community is handled by this council.