Why do Americans consider Israel their closest ally?

[Aardvark154]

There is a bill tabled in the US that really exemplifies the problem.

Why is it that AIPAC is sponsoring a bill that prevents diplomacy and handcuffs the President?

AIPAC? Here I was under the impression that it was Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen [D-FL-18] and 349 co-sponsors. By the way so that others may more easily see what you were talking about (which YOU could have done as well) you are writing of H.R. 1905.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d112:6:./temp/~bd4Ia4::|/home/LegislativeData.php|

http://www.internationalrelations.house.gov/112/ROSLEH_091_xml.pdf


By the way the provision of the Bill you are so worked up about you will note has an escape clause since it would otherwise certainly be unconstitutional (seperation of powers).

 

[benito]

Americans have been brainwashed to like israel since it's inception. The evangelicals have some belief that as long as Israel is held by the jews we can expect the second coming of christ. The jewish voting block in the US has an inordinate amount of power.
Senator Joe Lieberman, a conservative jew, may as well be the senator from Israel, which is why he supported Bush in the last election.
If Israel dissappeared tomorrow, it would really nake no difference to Canada or the US.

 

[Aardvark154]

If Israel dissappeared tomorrow, it would really nake no difference to Canada or the US.

Well besides the various calumnies.

How do you believe Israel would "disappear" is this really a back door way of saying that you think genocide doesn't or shouldn't matter to Canada and the U.S.A.

 

[rld]

Rid, can you do me a favour and tone down your responses?
i have no issues with hate, I'm just in favour of human rights and a political system for the people by the people.
I'll trim out the parts that aren't related to the discussion for now, but really, the language is a bit uncalled for.


Now, I'm going to admit that I'm not going to waste a few hours researching into the funding of US politics, I really do have better things to do. I understand your $750 million fundraiser for Obama skews the results, but probably where you'd really want to look is the fundraising of all members of congress and the senate, not just the president. I'm still trying to track down the original Richard Cohen article to find out where he got his 60% from, it does seem very high, but regardless of wasting hours debating funding, funding rules, accounting and definitions of lobbying, the point is that the Israeli lobby in the US wields excessive power, relative to the population and importance of Israel.

There is a bill tabled in the US that really exemplifies the problem.


That's from Al Jazeera, by the way.

Why is it that AIPAC is sponsoring a bill that prevents diplomacy and handcuffs the President?

Why should I tone down the nature of my response when you refuse to recognize the facts. But I like your suggestion, if you add in all the members of congress and senators, the % of funds attributed to pro-israel sources will go down...not up. The cost of the 2008 election cycle at the federal level was about 5.3 billion. The 2006 cycle, if you want a better comparison was about 2.6 billion. Feel free to do the math again. It keeps getting worse for you...



You are feeding into the old jewish conspiracy canard with is offensive and racist.

 

[cye]

You cannot take anything written by groggy seriously because he will ignore anything that counters his preconceived hatred of Israel. Any source that bolsters his position is unassailable and any position taken in defense of Israel is automatically a lie or propaganda. Only groggy would embrace the Turk's position on the Armenian genocide as the moral high ground. Until he develops some intellectual honesty his opinions are laughable.

 

[richaceg]

If only Arab nations would let the US get thier(US) hands on their(Arab) oil, Israel would have been erased from the map a long time ago. But no Arab nation would want that. And their paying the price...

 

[sleazure]

If that's a rhetorical question, are we still expected to answer?

 

[basketcase]

...
If Israel dissappeared tomorrow, it would really nake no difference to Canada or the US.

Except the US would no longer have access to an incredible amount of intelligence on Islamic groups who hate the US and the West as much as they hate Israel.

 

[groggy]

AIPAC? Here I was under the impression that it was Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen [D-FL-18] and 349 co-sponsors. By the way so that others may more easily see what you were talking about (which YOU could have done as well) you are writing of H.R. 1905.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d112:6:./temp/~bd4Ia4::|/home/LegislativeData.php|

http://www.internationalrelations.house.gov/112/ROSLEH_091_xml.pdf


By the way the provision of the Bill you are so worked up about you will note has an escape clause since it would otherwise certainly be unconstitutional (seperation of powers).

Hey Aardvark,
Apparently AIPAC boasted about sponsoring the bill on their website, approving of the bill through vote on Nov 2.
http://www.aipac.org/legislative-agenda/back-tougher-iran-sanctions
Here's what Al Jazeera had to say on the matter today:

The loudest, most influential organisations pushing for sanctions against Iran have an open pro-Israel agenda, regardless of their positioning on the political spectrum. The best resourced of all is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), self-described as "the most influential foreign policy lobbying organisation on Capitol Hill". AIPAC lobbied aggressively for the recent bellicose bill proposals, featuring them and its lead sponsors on the front page of its website. Sanctions are "having an impact" and "more are needed", the accompanying captions read. AIPAC is also a key backer of the push to sanction Iran's central bank, a move that some Iranian officials consider an act of war.

 

[fuji]

So the 349 co-sponsor of the bill had nothing to do with it, it was all AIPAC?

You live in some kind of a fog.

 

[Aardvark154]

Hey Aardvark,
Apparently AIPAC boasted about sponsoring the bill on their website

Well this is what your link says:

"The Iran Threat Reduction Act (H.R. 1905) and the Iran, North Korea, and Syria Sanctions Consolidation Act of 2011 (S. 1048) would sanction Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and enshrine into law for the first time that it is U.S. policy to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. The House bill, introduced by House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairwoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL) and Ranking Member Howard Berman (D-CA), was approved by the committee by voice vote on November 2. The Senate bill was introduced by Sens. Robert Menendez (D-NJ), Joseph Lieberman (I-CT), Jon Kyl (R-AZ), Robert Casey (D-PA), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY), Susan Collins (R-ME) and Mark Kirk (R-IL)."

Pecular but I see nothing about AIPAC saying they sponsored the bill.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Well besides the various calumnies.

How do you believe Israel would "disappear" is this really a back door way of saying that you think genocide doesn't or shouldn't matter to Canada and the U.S.A.

No need to get all bent and play the anti-Semite card Aardie.
We all know this will never let this happen to the 'chosen people of god'...their god will protect them....:eyebrows:

 

[groggy]

So the 349 co-sponsor of the bill had nothing to do with it, it was all AIPAC?
.

Apologies, the correct term is lobbied extensively for those bills, not sponsored.
Better?

 

[fuji]

Apologies, the correct term is lobbied extensively for those bills, not sponsored.
Better?

Do you think that there's some secret Jewish conspiracy running the world, Groggy? That's pretty racist.

Perhaps you think that it was a secret Jewish conspiracy that persuaded the United States to sell $60 billion in arms to Saudi Arabia for the express purpose of countering Iran.

 

[groggy]

Do you think that there's some secret Jewish conspiracy running the world, Groggy? That's pretty racist.

Perhaps you think that it was a secret Jewish conspiracy that persuaded the United States to sell $60 billion in arms to Saudi Arabia for the express purpose of countering Iran.

There is no secret conspiracy.
AIPAC is moderately public in their goals and means (though the stuff that came up through the espionage trial of the Rosen is shocking in the scope).
Its hard to find the details on the funding, but its not secret.
AIPAC wields too much power on American politics.

 

[Aardvark154]

There is no secret conspiracy.

AIPAC wields too much power on American politics.

Which to be delibrately explosive is along the lines of saying "the NAACP wields too much power on American politics"

First you admit that there is no secret conspiracy, then you say that this particular PAC has too great an impact on U.S. politics and foreign policy, so if you level this charge against AIPAC why not the NAACP?

 

[groggy]

NAACP does not represent a foreign country.

 

[rld]

NAACP does not represent a foreign country.

So what? There is no secret and the US has foreign policy so citizens are allowed to lobby to shape it. Just like the NAACP might lobby to shape education or housing policy.

What you are really saying is "I don't like the US Foreign Policy towards Israel, and am pouting because the people who lobby for a pro-Israel policy are quite good at it."

Of course it is not nearly that simple because the folks who lobby in favour of a pro-Saudi policy (and they arn't jewish) are doing a pretty good job as well...

If it matter would you have a problem if I was a really good lobbyist for Canadian foreign policy towards one of my ancestoral homelands?

For you...all logic comes back to "I don't like Israel. Israel+bad...Iran=good."

A mighty lonely position.

 

[groggy]

A mighty lonely position.

On the contrary.
Outrage to Israeli conduct is quite high worldwide, with Israel being one the least trusted or popular country in the world these days.
If I was Jewish, I'd be working my ass off to right wrongs in Israel, lest some less educated folk throughout the world conflate Israeli government actions with the will of the Jewish people. As it is, I know that they are about as popular there as Harper is here, and I'll be working my ass off to get Harper out of power, lest people worldwide conflate the Harper government with the will of Canadians.

 

[rld]

On the contrary.
Outrage to Israeli conduct is quite high worldwide, with Israel being one the least trusted or popular country in the world these days.
If I was Jewish, I'd be working my ass off to right wrongs in Israel, lest some less educated folk throughout the world conflate Israeli government actions with the will of the Jewish people. As it is, I know that they are about as popular there as Harper is here, and I'll be working my ass off to get Harper out of power, lest people worldwide conflate the Harper government with the will of Canadians.

In well informed first world countries I bet Iran is less trusted/liked than Israel. And you want Iran to have nuclear weapons.

And the bad news for you is...Harper just won a majority. Welcome to democracy.