Road tolls to pay for subways

[oldjones]

with your logic then you should have to pay every time you leave the city then since you don't pay taxes on those roads or in those municipalities. every time you enter a new municipality you should have to pay.

i love watching you guys say the first solution is higher tax then get bitchy cuz the taxes are raised.

Sounds perfectly sensible to me. I love how you no-tax freeloaders think everyone else is like you. And BTW, some of those roads just outside the city are paid for by provincial and federal taxes that we all pay.

But never let facts get in your way. That is the advantage of setting up the opposing argument yourself as you did, instead of responding to what was actually said, but it convinces no one.

 

[simon482]

Sounds perfectly sensible to me. I love how you no-tax freeloaders think everyone else is like you. And BTW, some of those roads just outside the city are paid for by provincial and federal taxes that we all pay.

But never let facts get in your way. That is the advantage of setting up the opposing argument yourself as you did, instead of responding to what was actually said, but it convinces no one.

Where do you get the impression I am a no tax freeloader and where did I dodg e any question. I have responded to everything posted to me that I saw. Higher taxes and making it cost more to go places is not the soltution unless your problem is to much money from tourism.

 

[good to go]

Truth be told, all taxpayers think they're overtaxed, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with with their tax rate. The smart ones long ago absorbed Ben Franklin's message and got on with the difficult and tedious job of getting value from the government that collects them. Which doesn't eliminate the fools who imagine getting a tax cut is progress, when it really is just tax room for some future government.

Unfortunately at this period the pendulum is favouring the Fools who have one of their own at City Hall. One notes the previous regime's taxes—now clumsily abandoned—left the City some $80 million in the black at the end of 2010. The projection—pre police salary gravy—for 2011 is a $770 million shortfall. With incentive like that watch Rob doing budget surgery with a weedwhacker. Who cares about value to the citizens if there's taxes to be cut! Cut Baby, Cut!

And appreciate the symbolism of his transit moves: Cancel transit plans spread across the City to put a few extra kilometres undergraound along Eglinton. Pretend there will be Magic Money to extend the Subway No One Wants along Sheppard. Feeding even more passengers into the over-capacity-now Yonge line. One thing the Fools are right about: Thinking like that isn't worth the taxes we pay.

The Yonge line will be fine once they get the new trains running. They are also going to use a new traffic system on the Yonge line which will allow for more trains on the line. As an added plus the new trains are car-less which means you can pack and extra 100 people on the same length of track.

 

[good to go]

with your logic then you should have to pay every time you leave the city then since you don't pay taxes on those roads or in those municipalities. every time you enter a new municipality you should have to pay.

i love watching you guys say the first solution is higher tax then get bitchy cuz the taxes are raised.

I have almost no reason to leave the city. And if i do it will be less often than those who come in on a daily basis.

 

[simon482]

I have almost no reason to leave the city. And if i do it will be less often than those who come in on a daily basis.

so you expect them to pay to come in but you don't have to pay to go out ? how is that fair ?

 

[good to go]

If i had any use for outside the city then i would leave. There is almost nothing that i need outside the city. The people who have to come into the city will need to pay.

The point we are trying to make is that there are fewer people needing to go outside the city than what need to come into the city. The people who come into the city do not pay for the infrastructure that they use on a daily basis. If we set a fee for those who travel into the city on a daily basis then there would be a steady cash flow to build a subway system.

 

[simon482]

If i had any use for outside the city then i would leave. There is almost nothing that i need outside the city. The people who have to come into the city will need to pay.

The point we are trying to make is that there are fewer people needing to go outside the city than what need to come into the city. The people who come into the city do not pay for the infrastructure that they use on a daily basis. If we set a fee for those who travel into the city on a daily basis then there would be a steady cash flow to build a subway system.

so again, punish the people that want a better quality of life and raise their expense more and you don't care because it won't cost you anything. seems pretty ignorant to me.

 

[fuji]

Why should toronto tax payers subsidize people who want toronto jobs but don't want to pay toronto tax?

You say it doesn't cost me anything? It sure does. My taxes pay for the roads you leach off of for free. I'm just suggesting you ought to pay your share.

 

[oldjones]

Where do you get the impression I am a no tax freeloader and where did I dodg e any question. I have responded to everything posted to me that I saw. Higher taxes and making it cost more to go places is not the soltution unless your problem is to much money from tourism.

Why Mr. Pot! Who knew you could recognize a kettle when you saw one? So getting back to what you really said, not the fiction you put in my mouth: Your proposition that we should pay toills to every municipality makes perfect sense—as I said already. What is your problem?

If you have something against tolls—like roads are a public good that we all should be taxed to provide free for all (very socialist)—please spit it out. But let's not bring up the fairytale that gas taxes cover road costs ok? Not without real numbers.

 

[simon482]

Why Mr. Pot! Who knew you could recognize a kettle when you saw one? So getting back to what you really said, not the fiction you put in my mouth: Your proposition that we should pay toills to every municipality makes perfect sense—as I said already. What is your problem?

If you have something against tolls—like roads are a public good that we all should be taxed to provide free for all (very socialist)—please spit it out. But let's not bring up the fairytale that gas taxes cover road costs ok? Not without real numbers.

yes i do have something against tolls, they don't make sense to me for a city that is trying to bring in tourism when it doesn't really have much to offer in the way of things to actually see. the way fuji and the other guy are talking is people that live in the city don't need to pay but people that live outside of the city have to pay, that doesn't make sense. so lets go off the deep end and make every highway a toll highway for everyone so no one goes anywhere. then you toronto people can be all locked up in toronto with yoruselves and no one will come there and you can go about thinking you are the greatest city ever.

okay and lets clarify. not just gas tax is used for roads but it is used. there are far to many taxes and price increases as there is now. all of you cry during election for fewer taxes and vote for the guy that promises it and now you are saying the only solution is to raise taxes or tax more then when he does it you call im a piece of shit for instituting new taxes.

new tax/tolls is not a solution i consider to be the right solution when there is the waste that there is in city halls and gov't offices the way there is. reign in on spending and save some money to re use other places.

 

[fuji]

so lets go off the deep end and make every highway a toll highway for everyone so no one goes anywhere.

I have lived in countries where every highway is a toll highway, and people still go everywhere. In the US not every highway is a toll, but there are a lot of tolls, and they don't seem to have brought the country to a standstill. I've noticed that the roads tend to be higher quality in those places that have tolls too--something about being able to pay for the road work.

It seems to be only Canadians that have this bizarre idea that driving around on expensively built highways and expressways should be free.

not just gas tax is used for roads but it is used.

The gas tax does not fund city roads. Miller ran a very pointed campaign to try and get some of the gas tax handed over to the city, and was refused.

 

[oldjones]

yes i do have something against tolls, they don't make sense to me for a city that is trying to bring in tourism when it doesn't really have much to offer in the way of things to actually see. the way fuji and the other guy are talking is people that live in the city don't need to pay but people that live outside of the city have to pay, that doesn't make sense. so lets go off the deep end and make every highway a toll highway for everyone so no one goes anywhere. then you toronto people can be all locked up in toronto with yoruselves and no one will come there and you can go about thinking you are the greatest city ever.

okay and lets clarify. not just gas tax is used for roads but it is used. there are far to many taxes and price increases as there is now. all of you cry during election for fewer taxes and vote for the guy that promises it and now you are saying the only solution is to raise taxes or tax more then when he does it you call im a piece of shit for instituting new taxes.

new tax/tolls is not a solution i consider to be the right solution when there is the waste that there is in city halls and gov't offices the way there is. reign in on spending and save some money to re use other places.

Ok Let's stick with the Socialist Solution. We'll tax everyone and provide free services for all. When we agree on the services we don't need—like roads in decent condition—we can reduce taxes. Given the abysmal state of our streets and roads now, and the fact that we've elected tax-cutters municipally and federally, I guess that's where we are now.

But let's get one thing perfectly clear: Folks who go 'round labelling this party or that political view as "" don't get to say stuff like"…all of you cry during election for fewer taxes and vote for the guy that promises it and now you are saying the only solution is to raise taxes" The tax-and-spend guys vote for tax-and-spend guys, and they lost duhh! It's Cons who let themselves get conned by phony-baloney promises like 'free super highways for all and fewer taxes all round; we can pay for it all out of office expenses and no extra gravy on the fries'.

Road tolls are user pay; what could be fairer or more free-market?

 

[avxl1003]

This is ridiculous.

Tolls work to help pay for roads. They also (if designed intelligently) help reduce traffic congestion within urban areas. As Fuji said, they have been used successfully in countries around the world.

If you're a truck driver then it's pretty obvious that you'd be opposed to road tolls. I get it, and the idea sucks for you. However there is no question in my mind that the people of Toronto would benefit from road tolls. There's no doubt that the surrounding sub-urbanites would continue to venture into Toronto for work, and they would also continue to come in and see all the tourist attractions that Toronto has to offer on their days off. The main difference would be that they would either be contributing to the upkeep of the roads that they travel on, or they would be on the damn Go-Train keeping congestion to a minimum.

 

[simon482]

I have lived in countries where every highway is a toll highway, and people still go everywhere. In the US not every highway is a toll, but there are a lot of tolls, and they don't seem to have brought the country to a standstill. I've noticed that the roads tend to be higher quality in those places that have tolls too--something about being able to pay for the road work.

It seems to be only Canadians that have this bizarre idea that driving around on expensively built highways and expressways should be free.



The gas tax does not fund city roads. Miller ran a very pointed campaign to try and get some of the gas tax handed over to the city, and was refused.

i am running all over toll roads in the states and they are some of the bumpiest pieces of shit going. just saying.

 

[simon482]

Ok Let's stick with the Socialist Solution. We'll tax everyone and provide free services for all. When we agree on the services we don't need—like roads in decent condition—we can reduce taxes. Given the abysmal state of our streets and roads now, and the fact that we've elected tax-cutters municipally and federally, I guess that's where we are now.

But let's get one thing perfectly clear: Folks who go 'round labelling this party or that political view as "" don't get to say stuff like"…all of you cry during election for fewer taxes and vote for the guy that promises it and now you are saying the only solution is to raise taxes" The tax-and-spend guys vote for tax-and-spend guys, and they lost duhh! It's Cons who let themselves get conned by phony-baloney promises like 'free super highways for all and fewer taxes all round; we can pay for it all out of office expenses and no extra gravy on the fries'.

Road tolls are user pay; what could be fairer or more free-market?

i guess what i am trying to say in a long winded kind of way is that they have enough money now if it was properly managed to take care of what needs to be done and that new or more taxes/tolls is not the right answer.

 

[fuji]

I don't see why subway riders should pay $2.50 while road users pay nothing.

 

[fuji]

i guess what i am trying to say in a long winded kind of way is that they have enough money now if it was properly managed to take care of what needs to be done and that new or more taxes/tolls is not the right answer.

The point is they don't have the money. Ford is a few billion short of his election promise, and even just the ongoing budget is over 700 million more than the city can afford.

 

[oldjones]

i guess what i am trying to say in a long winded kind of way is that they have enough money now if it was properly managed to take care of what needs to be done and that new or more taxes/tolls is not the right answer.

Well that is an opinion, but if it was objectively based and validly reasoned, you'd imagine someone by now woulda come up with numbers to support it. So far all I've see is political windbaggery.

It requires us to accept that: There's nothing more that government could or should do that they aren't already doing—no new fighter planes or subways or MRI machines—and that they're wasting a considerable amount df what they have now. So when they've saved enough money maybe we'll let them do something they aren't doing. Like fix the damn potholes, open some long-term facilities to relieve hospital bedblocking and build those naval icebtreakers Harpo once promised.

But right now, all three levels of government are in the hole, and there isn't a one that doesn't have plans. I think we should pay for the services we need, especially if the payers have free choice to lessen their costly behaviour. I'm tired of the wishful thinking that says if they cut taxes, then government will shrink. Just name one example; belive me, if it worked we'd all be doing it.

 

[simon482]

Well that is an opinion, but if it was objectively based and validly reasoned, you'd imagine someone by now woulda come up with numbers to support it. So far all I've see is political windbaggery.

It requires us to accept that: There's nothing more that government could or should do that they aren't already doing—no new fighter planes or subways or MRI machines—and that they're wasting a considerable amount df what they have now. So when they've saved enough money maybe we'll let them do something they aren't doing. Like fix the damn potholes, open some long-term facilities to relieve hospital bedblocking and build those naval icebtreakers Harpo once promised.

But right now, all three levels of government are in the hole, and there isn't a one that doesn't have plans. I think we should pay for the services we need, especially if the payers have free choice to lessen their costly behaviour. I'm tired of the wishful thinking that says if they cut taxes, then government will shrink. Just name one example; belive me, if it worked we'd all be doing it.

i didn't say cut taxes. i said where it is now is fine. of course that is my own opinion and obviously i am wrong since the majority of you guys think that more taxes/tolls are the answer and to be honest i really don't give a fuck what gets raised or added. i don't go into toronto, haven't been into toronto since i moved out of it 2 or 3 years ago how ever long agao it was and i don't plan on ever going back except under heavy protest. so raise all the shit you want, add what ever the fuck you want and then cry later that it is to much. all good in the hood old timer, do what you want to do.

 

[avxl1003]

i didn't say cut taxes. i said where it is now is fine. of course that is my own opinion and obviously i am wrong since the majority of you guys think that more taxes/tolls are the answer and to be honest i really don't give a fuck what gets raised or added. i don't go into toronto, haven't been into toronto since i moved out of it 2 or 3 years ago how ever long agao it was and i don't plan on ever going back except under heavy protest. so raise all the shit you want, add what ever the fuck you want and then cry later that it is to much. all good in the hood old timer, do what you want to do.

You sound like a child throwing a tantrum here... Just saying