The Bible: Truth or Fiction?
- Thread starter stinkynuts
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You read that Harper book now didn't you?
I think your collar was a little tight padre.
Most scholars would principally agree, however, you have your timing off by a good many years. Remember the four canonical Gospels were rewrites of earlier texts which themselves were recordings of oral "histories." Most likely this change in emphasis to make Pilate into a "good guy" began around 50 A.D. as Christianity began to move out in to the Roman world.
If the bible was written today it would be called"The Politics".Same thing.Old men scaring the masses into doing what they want in their own best interests.The Bible was politics of fear ..nothing more.
genesis, chapt 38
7: And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord slew him.
8: And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.
10: And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore, He slew him also.
So, here are two people god slew, simply because they displeased him! The thing that Onan did that displeased god was that Onan refused to obey orders, and plant his seed in his dead brother's wife. God the murderer.
Wherever the commandment Thou shalt not kill came from, it cannot have come from god -- not unless one wants to class god as the world's biggest hypocrite.
In fact, god must go down as one of the worst mass murderers of all time. God was responsible for the deaths of whole nations, by the thousands, simply because they did not believe in him. And god didn't just order his minions to attend to the killing, like Hitler and Stalin - god personally slew most of them himself.
The notion that god is love is so far removed from the bible stories about god as to be laughable. Have you read Leviticus? Even the ten commandments admit that god is jealous. Jealous!
Of the ten commandments, only three have actually made it into modern law - no killing, no stealing, no perjury. And where are the commandments that prohibit rape? child use? hostage taking? fraud? cheating on your taxes?
So, please, don't accuse religious people of being hypocrites - the old bastard himself set the standard.
And what about the garden of eden story? God told Eve that if she ate the apple, she would surely die. The serpent told her she wouldn't. The serpent told the truth. God lied.
To be fair the writers of the Old Testament were not Christians but
priests of a different religion. Including the books of the OT in the
Bible canon is a monumental mistake of the founders of Christianity.
You might be right. But who cares?
The NT, at the time it was written, was a revolutionary document which went against all of the significant sources of societal power at the time, both Roman and Jewish.
The Bible was very much the politics of change and something new.
It was not for centuries that it became the status quo.
Your comment demonstrates the importance of putting a document in its proper historic context to understand it properly.
It's a religious work so truth and fiction are inappropriate terms. But do 'splain what you mean by the Bible. Just which texts, of what early writings translated exactly how, comprise what we casually call the Bible has never been settled either by a deity or by her devoted followers.
Look up the Apocrypha f'rinstance.
Look up the Apocrypha f'rinstance.
I am famaliar with most of the religious texts that got left out that are extant.
But when we use the term Bible we generally mean the OT and NT which are utilized by the vast majority of modern churches.
We can certainly discuss those other texts as well.
Perhaps that is indeed 'what we mean by the Bible', but that's just us. If we all agreed, those other texts—and the standards for choosing the canonical texts—would be non-issues. And then there's the matter of what is/are the 'original' text(s) translated by who when. When "the earth was without form and void", there were neither pencils nor ink. Doesn't make the version that finally got written down true or not, but which is the better/earlier/more accurate does demand examination after thousands of years of oral transmission.
For those who believe, the Bible—whichever version they choose—expresses deep truths. Even non-believers can find truths in it. But that's a far, far different thing from judging whether it is true or not. As f'rinstance whether some archaic Levantine word that a committee of Elizabethan scholars translated as "great fish" could, or could not properly be applied to a mammal, whether it is a 'true' descriptor of an extinct species, or a 'poetic' account of a rescue by dolphin.
I think biblical truth or fiction is not a meaningful dichotomy. But it might be informative to search for reported historical evidence that supports Biblical accounts.
For those who believe, the Bible—whichever version they choose—expresses deep truths. Even non-believers can find truths in it. But that's a far, far different thing from judging whether it is true or not. As f'rinstance whether some archaic Levantine word that a committee of Elizabethan scholars translated as "great fish" could, or could not properly be applied to a mammal, whether it is a 'true' descriptor of an extinct species, or a 'poetic' account of a rescue by dolphin.
I think biblical truth or fiction is not a meaningful dichotomy. But it might be informative to search for reported historical evidence that supports Biblical accounts.
That is exactly why I am not a big fan of the King James. But the translations are getting better and better all the time, and we find new bits and copies now and again that allow us to increase our understanding of these historic documents.
You would be wrong (again) - I still have the opinion that bible thumping (a term you keep dropping) Christians are racists, vengeful, and intolerant. The intolerance is the foundation of most of the morality laws both here and in the USA that penalizes sexual expression. Who do you think is mounting the biggest resistance to homosexual marriages, legalized prostitution and basically any decision made between consenting adults that they find adverse to their own religious beliefs ?
"To say the bible is against capital punishment based on the 10 commandments while ignoring the rest is simply foolish" - Classic example of hypocrisy. The 10 Commandments are by every biblical scholar recognized as the principals of the church. The other parables, stories and antidotes are window dressing but not intended to negate these rules. But Bible thumpers like revenge, they need to ignore or bend these rules so they will acknowledge the rules, but quote parables out of context to support actions not in tune with God's word. Once the door is open, then others from Rev Jim Jones to David Koresh (who coveted everyone's wife and children) become the possible. Now the bible thumpers pursue everything from witch hunts, inquisitions, because in the plethora of badly written/translated passages - are obscure sentences that let them skirt the commandments to persecute others freely. Even you support this position opportunity to forget the commandments for other self-serving parables as an opportunity that would be 'foolish' to ignore.
I'm not a believer but I find it typical that while holding the contents so sacred, they use the weight of the bible to bludgeon so many other peoples rights. Hypocrites !
It is actually you who are taking the ten commandments out of context. That is what happens when you elevate one part of the bible over another.
You simply choose to ignore that God directly ordered people be put to death for various crimes. How do you breath with your head so far in the sand.
And now I am really sure you don't know what you are talking about. The Rev Jim Jones was a communist atheist who specifically rejected the bible.
And guess what, people in a democracy are entitled to different opinions. Some people are against gay marriage, or prostitution. They disagree with you. Perhaps you should look around and stop demonizing everybody who thinks differently than you do.
You further demonstrate your ignorance by saying that the 10 commandments are the "principals of the church." That is simply wrong. When Jesus was asked about this he said that there were two crucial laws: (and I am paraphrasing because I don't have time to look them up) firstly to love and obey God, secondly to love your neighbour as you would love yourself.
The 10 commandments form part of the OT covenant and are powerful guides but they are not the basis of the church, because they are not the foundation for salvation.
To me the important issue is what these laws say about God, irregardless of who they are/were addressed to. They paint a picture of a God that is not at all just, fair, or ethical...by any standard other than the believer standard (which is if it is in the Bible and God said it, or did it, it must, by definition, be good). Believers have no defense, in my opinion, against the Biblical picture of the character and nature of the God they worship. And in my mind this says that these are all man made rules, laws, "words of God"...and there is probably no such God, at least I hope not because if so there is no need for a devil.
