Aren't there huge penalties for cancellation in such cases? (Like I said, I'm not sufficiently devious enough to even try and figure that out.)
Uninsured Drivers
- Thread starter Malibook
- Start date
I'm still playing catch up on reading over a few of the lengthier replies, but I'll touch on this question as several of you have asked about the plate registration sticker.
There's actually two ways around this;
1) A lot of companies, mostly direct writing companies like Belair and the banks, offer a king of buyers regret type 15-30 day "out" without penalty period where someone would purchase insurance, get the appropriate stickers for their plates, and then cancel the insurance.
2) I'm a little rusty on this one as I haven't done sales in a long time but I think if you cancel the policy before it officially starts there are no penalties. So my plate renewal comes up in say April but I can get the sticker before then, so I just go and set up an insurance policy to start in April sometime in February. I show them I'll be insured at the ministry, get my sticker, and go home and cancel my insurance telling them I found someone cheaper.
From what I have experienced, most uninsured drivers tend to usually have lapsed policies due to non payment as opposed to someone outright scamming the system.
There's actually two ways around this;
1) A lot of companies, mostly direct writing companies like Belair and the banks, offer a king of buyers regret type 15-30 day "out" without penalty period where someone would purchase insurance, get the appropriate stickers for their plates, and then cancel the insurance.
2) I'm a little rusty on this one as I haven't done sales in a long time but I think if you cancel the policy before it officially starts there are no penalties. So my plate renewal comes up in say April but I can get the sticker before then, so I just go and set up an insurance policy to start in April sometime in February. I show them I'll be insured at the ministry, get my sticker, and go home and cancel my insurance telling them I found someone cheaper.
From what I have experienced, most uninsured drivers tend to usually have lapsed policies due to non payment as opposed to someone outright scamming the system.
Insurance companies can leave you thinking you have insurance when you don't. Someone I know had been paying insurance to suddenly discover the insurance company had canceled his policy. He even had the bank withdrawal records.From what I have experienced, most uninsured drivers tend to usually have lapsed policies due to non payment as opposed to someone outright scamming the system.
He found out about this when he went to update his policy, and the broker wanted a huge premium increase because he was uninsured!
Also, the MTO insists you record your insurance information. They don't actually verify that it is valid.
No, I'm not a broker, but have worked on both sides of the fence doing sales for a direct writing company, and claims for a broker based company.Thanks for the helpful info. Could you clarify what would happen to someone who was convicted of being uninsured? and say in case of one who hasn't been insured in 20years, as mention above. You appear to be a broker? If so, I'm a big fan, I've been with my broker for 20 years and would never buy direct insurance. My broker gets me much better rates and are there "for me" if I have a problem or question.
Honestly I make use of a direct writing company for my own insurance because I know the system well enough that the savings make a difference to me (for example I would have gotten a %20 discount had I insured with my own company, but actually found a direct writing company that gave me better coverage at a lower rate).
Brokers are a bit of a mixed bag in my opinion as more and more brokerages are getting eaten up and merging into sizeable entities themselves I find there's very little difference between them and a direct writing company aside from the fact that you're paying a bit more to cover the brokers costs. They deal on volume, and often have call or contact centres of their own.
On the other hand there are a lot of really great independent brokers that I have had the pleasure of dealing with that do fight for every penny for their customers, follow up with the adjusters to stay informed, and just overall go above and beyond for their customers because for them its all about retention. If you can find a broker like this, and there are plenty out there, they are well worth the difference in cost as they will continually work for you.
To answer the question about being convicted about being uninsured I don't know the legal ramifications as I didn't often see that end of things, but in preparing subrogation claims and dealing with our subrogations department frequently I can say that not a whole lot really happens as we often got monthy re-payments of anywhere from $20 and up. Typically the courts tend to side with the person with the deepest pockets and to not completely hobble someone financially for the rest of their lives.
The other thing to consider is that sometimes outside of registering a notice with the ministry against someone's license its often not even worth pursing someone. I once helped uncover a theft - fraud ring and denied a $25 k claim that we had completely proven to be fraudulent. I probably paid out about $8 k worth of lawyers fee's to say nothing of our own investigators, my time, and my bosses all to deny this claim. In my experience the most common claim I saw was little bumper accidents that usually cost around $1300-1600 to fix and cover a rental. If the other guy is uninsured you usually have a law firm on retainer that will send out a chain letter for you so that it looks a little more serious... after that though its not worth chasing the guy and racking up bigger legal fee's when the likely return is so small, so our subro department would just register a notice with the ministry of transportation and they'd suspend the guys license... problem is if their driving without insurance already this probably isn't going to phase them that much.
It sucks, lol.
I have seen this as well due to errors between underwriting and AR, but by statute if your insurance is cancelled it has to be done by registered letter and there is a prescribed period of time that they still have to cover you for... I think the letter has to go out 14 days before, and you have 30 days or something... sorry been a while on this one, but you are right it does happen.Insurance companies can leave you thinking you have insurance when you don't. Someone I know had been paying insurance to suddenly discover the insurance company had canceled his policy. He even had the bank withdrawal records.
He found out about this when he went to update his policy, and the broker wanted a huge premium increase because he was uninsured!
Also, the MTO insists you record your insurance information. They don't actually verify that it is valid.
Having your insurance cancelled due to non-payment can lead to rate increases. It can also factor into the combination of strikes against you that can force you out of regular market insurance and into the high risk facility market.
SN,
I always love the reaction when talking profits and losses, you ask someone up the food chain how much money the insureance company lost in the recent stock market roller coaster; Manulife comes to mind of the big ones. They end to choke on their words and good really silent. regular folks aren't supposed to know that.
I was by no means up the food chain, so maybe it was just the company bullshit that they fed us... I dunno?I can't help myself.
The auto industry made record profits from 2003 to late 2008 by lying to both the public and the government in 2003. They have made massive underwriting profits over those years which were historically unprecedented. They have an unfair and incestuous rate setting system that has forced regulation on them.
There is a reason there is reinsurance.
And last year was a slow claims year for Ontario in P&C and insurers are getting very profitable again, since we were forced to bail them out in the early 2000's due to their over investment in the tech sector. Still waiting for the government bailout for my investments in that period.
Insurers also play a load of games in setting and adjusting reserves to force rate increases and time them so they can get maximum political impact. Insurers intentionally manipulate the political system to get rate increases that otherwise there would be no hope for.
And I expect we are now paying for the failure of Kingway's pet insurance market attempt.
I do know that during some of the "catastrophe's" I mentioned we were outsourcing a huge volume of clams simply because we couldn't keep up. In Chatham for example repair facilities were booking repairs for the hail damage a year after the fact, and with all of the flooding it was extremely hard to get a contractor in for even an initial assessment within a month of the damage. As an adjuster you spend a good chunk of your day talking to adjusters from other insurances companies as well as brokers and this seemed to be the same story across the board.
I would never suggest for a second that insurance companies aren't profitable as I knew people that worked for Intact for example and when they seperated from ING they did so with around $400 million sitting in the bank just for investments in other companies to say nothing of them still being the largest insurance company in Canada.
There are a couple of sizeable companies that are just getting by and are constantly rumoured to be for sale, in addition to other comanies wanting to get out of the property insurance business for fear of another year like either last year or the year before.
On the other hand look at Belair direct. They have a very narrow book of business, and do their best of reject even the slightest risk so they are extremely successful.
get insurance right before and cancel right after comes to mindBut wait a second. You have to provide proof of insurance every time you get a license plate sticker.
OK, maybe I don't have a devious enough mind to try & figure a way around this, but how would one go about renewing a license sticker without insurance?
IIRC correctly Grey Power are not really an insurer per se, I think their politices are underwritten by Trafalger which is owned by ING...Belair is smart by doing that, as is Grey Power who cover only older drivers.
insurance companies aren't greedy. they save up money for big claims during accidents and how much do you pay? when it all sums up, it's huge but on side note, it really isn't. but yeah, those insurance agents are greedy mofos. they tell you what you want to hear and none of the disclaimers so be very careful when putting your name on those documents. warranties and contracts go hand in hand to fuck you up.
Insurer profits in Ontario in this century have smashed records no matter how you measure it. Even in areas they are not supposed to make profits.insurance companies aren't greedy. they save up money for big claims during accidents and how much do you pay? when it all sums up, it's huge but on side note, it really isn't. but yeah, those insurance agents are greedy mofos. they tell you what you want to hear and none of the disclaimers so be very careful when putting your name on those documents. warranties and contracts go hand in hand to fuck you up.
That is true but they've taken the course of limiting their pool and it appears to work well. They're not my underwriter but I watch very quickly for any wrenches that my present one brings up and i play the yabbut card. They back away quicklyIIRC correctly Grey Power are not really an insurer per se, I think their politices are underwritten by Trafalger which is owned by ING...
Oh yeah, but is it just division A being very conservative to balance off other risks they write. ING writes a lot of funky risks...That is true but they've taken the course of limiting their pool and it appears to work well. They're not my underwriter but I watch very quickly for any wrenches that my present one brings up and i play the yabbut card. They back away quickly
is it just me or is it wrong for the gov to force someone to buy insurance? I say get it if you want, and if someone damages your car and does not have it then just sue them.
the reason you are forced to buy insurance is not to protect you...it is to protect the guy you could cripple, so that he is not left without compensation or care if the person who really harms him cannot pay the damages...is it just me or is it wrong for the gov to force someone to buy insurance? I say get it if you want, and if someone damages your car and does not have it then just sue them.
And how many judges do you think we would have to hire to do all the stupid small brains court property loss cases your idea would create?
In B.C. it is difficult to drive without insurance because there are stickers on your plate that say to the date when your insurance expires. When you cancel your insurance, you have to bring the plate into the govt office to either surrender your plate, or if it's a peronalised plate, they remove the stickers. The police can tell right away if you are covered or not. You would think all provinces would do this.
And when you find out that the person who damages your car (or you) has no assets to sue for what then?is it just me or is it wrong for the gov to force someone to buy insurance? I say get it if you want, and if someone damages your car and does not have it then just sue them.
Just renewed my plate sticker at the automated kiosk. It asked for my insurance company and policy # but how much verification is done to see if I actually put in a valid answer?But wait a second. You have to provide proof of insurance every time you get a license plate sticker.
OK, maybe I don't have a devious enough mind to try & figure a way around this, but how would one go about renewing a license sticker without insurance?
I don't know the answer as I have insurance, just wondering the same as you are.
You don't really sue for auto damages when you're talking insurance in Ontario.And when you find out that the person who damages your car (or you) has no assets to sue for what then?
The whole No-fault thing is a very poorly worded term that's thrown around. The whole system would probably be a bit more understandable to people if it was called "regardless of fault"... as in regardless of fault your own insurance company pays for it all (they then have the right to subrogate on your behalf).
Typically when you're talking about two insured drivers getting into an accident the at fault party's collision pays for their own damage while the not at fault party's damage is paid for by a part of your policy called direct compensation for property damage (DCPD).
Assuming you are not at fault in an accident and the other party does not have insurance your damages are paid for by the uninsured motorist fund. Even though you aren't at fault you are still responsible for a $300 deductible as part of accessing this. Your insurance company will then try and recoup the cost of the damages (as well as your $300 bucks, although honestly fat chance...).
Given that the courts are only really going to award you the actual cash value (ACV... not the fabled blue or black book value, but rather your vehicle held up against the market of like kind and quality vehicles and in essence what your insurance company will award you for the value of your car should it be a write off) of the vehicle it would make little to no sense to sue the other party, which is kinda one of the big reasons why they brought in No-fault to start with.
Can you sue the other guy for other stuff, or even really if you pushed for it the damages to your car...? Probably, but you're going to spend more in time and money to in all likelyhood get less.
The three hundred dollar deductible sucks, but the reality is when you're talking about insurance claims its always a good idea to expect to pay a deductible because that is your retained risk, which is why its sometimes a good idea to bit the bullet on a bit more of a monthly fee to take a lower collision deductible as there are cases where even though you aren't at fault you may still have to pay your collision deductible (non Ontario insureds, hit and runs... ect). While you can choose to have a DCPD deductible this isn't common, so after investigation to make sure your claim can be processed under it you can either proceed DCPD (no deductible) or given the length of time it takes to get police reports in refund the collision deductible and then proceed DCPD.
FYI, and should be common knowledge, but if anyone is ever in an accident writing down license plates. Even if its not the car you directly hit the Ontario rules still allow you to "use" any other vehicle even tacitly involved in the accidents insurance in order to access DCPD (ie 3 car fender bender... even if your middle car and the guy behind you hits you and you and get pushed into someone.. provided you were stopped, you can access DCPD off the guy ahead of you even if the guy who caused it all is uninsured) . Since the car being insured is what matters (not the driver as they may not be licensed, insured on that vehicle, or whatever) the plate will give you everything else that your insurance company needs. Never trust the cops when they say your insurance company can just get the police report as while this is true it can take anywhere from a week to months for it to come in, in the mean time their left with no info on the other driver and thus can't do anything for you except put it through your coverages which means you're out of pocket.
Not saying don't grab the rest of the OP info if you can get it (and witness info), just start writing down plates ASAP in case the other guy takes off.
gas
Ya gas is a big problem. Price of a mixed economy - Venz is way cheaper, and the US a little bit so. But then, we only have one toll road.If you cant afford insurance, DONT DRIVE..
Its really unfair how the we pay off by working off our butts to insurance, and then make a minor mistake and boom you get a traffic ticket of 350 $ and then insurance shoots up.
However, those who drive without insurance, and get convicted, what happens to their insurance ? Does it go up too ?
Gas is going up day by day .. its like its digging deeper into our anuses .. Anyone AGREE ?
