Definition of torture

[escortsxxx]

I remember the WW II war movies where under the Geneva conventions, to stop this entie debate, captured combatants where only allowed to asked their name, rank and serial number. End of story. When the "evil" German's tried to do more, even like they said, taking away meal privlages, they where guilty of war crimes and in the movies but previous western values being immoral and beyond the pale.
Basically, the current morality is if you have the power you should do whatever you can do, and the concept of torture, child rape, theft, mental torture, deprviation or anything nasty goes out the window. Hell, in Canada instead of bringing our prisionrs of war back to Canada to go into miltary camps ( as we did in WW II) we hand off our captured soilders who are either released almost immediatly to fight against us again, or never seen again because they where tortued and then we assume killed. Do we care? Of coure not. We have gotton to the point of Nazi's aruging about degrees of dehumaniztion that are necessary to protect the fatherland and democracy. The Suspension of the neceeary of any proof to convict someone in the USA should be enought to do anything the goverment needs too do . . .


Oh on the child rape from the Ottawa Citizen:

Every day, Travis Schouten lives with the image of the rape of an Afghan boy at a Canadian Forces base.

Witnessing two men, one armed with a knife, sodomize the child during an incident in late 2006 helped drive the 26-year-old to the brink of mental collapse.

But the former corporal said the assault is just the tip of an iceberg and underneath lies the systemic sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghanistan’s police and army. It’s something he said the Canadian Forces has turned a blind eye to.

“It’s disgusting,” said Schouten, now retired after eight years in the military. “We’re telling people that we’re trying to build a nation there and we let this happen?”


Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Former+C...+Afghanistan/2014450/story.html#ixzz152FOnYP2

 

[Rockslinger]

But the former corporal said the assault is just the tip of an iceberg and underneath lies the systemic sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghanistan’s police and army. It’s something he said the Canadian Forces has turned a blind eye to.

That is why we must leave Afghanistan. It is not our culture, it is not our country and we should leave the indigenous people there evolve in their own way. We keep forgetting the famous words of Captain James T. Kirk of the Starship Enterprise: "Do not interfere with alien culture, leave them as you found them." Why do we always insist on imposing our culture and our values on alien people. No wonder they hate us.

 

[fuji]

Saying it's not torture because it doesn't leave a mark or permanent physical damage is dumb.

If I repeatedly hold your head underwater and only let you come up to air at the last minute before you pass out, after you start flailing around desperately, and I do this to you over and over and over, that is plainly fucking torture, but there will be no mark, or any other permanent damage.

 

[simon482]

do what you need to do to get the answers you need in any situation where someone could die. your kid is kidnapped and they catch the guy that did it, are you gonna ask that they treat him nice while asking where your kid is ? fuck no your not, at least i wouldn't. i would do everything i could to hurt him as badly as possible till he told me what i needed to know then i would gut him to stop him from doing it again. doing this to a terrorist is the same thing. again do what you have to do to get the answers you need.

 

[fuji]

Yeah and while we're at it, Simon, why don't we start chopping off the hands of thieves. We could hang them all from a string and have our school kids pose for photographs holding the severed hands.

 

[blackrock13]

That is why we must leave Afghanistan. It is not our culture, it is not our country and we should leave the indigenous people there evolve in their own way. We keep forgetting the famous words of Captain James T. Kirk of the Starship Enterprise: "Do not interfere with alien culture, leave them as you found them." Why do we always insist on imposing our culture and our values on alien people. No wonder they hate us.

So RS, we stand by and let the world go to hell in a hand basket. Afghanistan is a a medieval snake pit. So are about 40 other countries in the world. Do we treat them the same way?

Canadians find that hard to do, thank goodness. It's the decision of when to get involved or not that makes us different from many others. What has pissed me off all along has been the dithering by our leaders go in 10 years ago and now the same type of hedging and waffling as we egress and we're screwing that up as well.

 

[rld]

I don't believe for a second that anyone who has tried waterboarding would say it is not bad. The technique used to be used as training for top special forces units and CIA operatives and the toughest men cracked very quickly.

Waterboarding has been torture under international law for decades, and the US position is that it was torture was also held for decades. Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding against US troops in WWII were prosecuted by the US after the war for those acts. The Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding were hanged by the United States. Clear enough?

Since then, the CIA yearbook and the State Department annual review of human rights has always listed countries that used waterboarding or similar techniques as being human rights violators.

So, since at least about 1950 or so, waterboarding has been considered torture by the US and by most of the international community.

 

[blackrock13]

You'd have about as much luck banning torture as you'd have in banning rape or murder or any other form of violence.
I don't beleive there's anyone who actively promotes the use of harsh interrogation techniques, but as already pointed out, there are instances where its use has saved lives. Info needs to be timely and actionable.....uncover a bomb-making op & rough up the occupants to get details necessary to save lives. Keep roughing the occupants up after holding them for 6 months, then that stops being a useful tool in your toolbox and becomes plain ol' revenge. Nothing positive will come of that.
Anybody here ever go through a SERE or R2I course? Terrorist organizations have included similar (if not identical, thank-you-very-much Ali Mohammed) courses for their members - techniques on how to resist interrogation. So theres a very good chance that the worst we can do to an extremist (sleep deprivation, short-shackling, psych-outs, etc etc) upon catching him, he's already been through it in some training camp in Sa'ada or Jalalabad, and he's learned that its not as bad as it feels (yes, you read that right)
Today, Canadians gathered around monuments or office water-coolers or in their classroom & at 11am reflected on the significance of the day (that commemorates military and civilian sacrifices in past wars), but we need to reflect on the present and future conflicts, where old rules don't necessarily apply, and clinging to them may put us at a serious disadvantage. We're not using iceboxes to chill our veggies, or whale-oil lamps to light our homes, but we're clinging to some outdated concepts in a very rapidly evolving area.
Recognize that "torture" may have some practical applications and set down some criteria of who, when, how, etc etc. Like any tool, its better to have it available and never need to use it, than to need it in an emergency and not have it available.

Well said SG, spoken with balance and background. Everything is true and should be read slowly and maybe more than once.

 

[red]

torture is wrong. thats it. its wrong. whatever your reason. its wrong. the ends do not justify the means. ever.

 

[blackrock13]

Bullshit, I have tried waterboarding and it wasn't that bad. I know people who party so hard in toronto that is the entertainment. I mean it sucked and your body goes through some really interesting physiological responses but it is safe. Safe enough. Beats jumper cables to the nuts...

I don't believe for a second that anyone who has tried waterboarding would say it is not bad. The technique used to be used as training for top special forces units and CIA operatives and the toughest men cracked very quickly.

Waterboarding has been torture under international law for decades, and the US position is that it was torture was also held for decades. Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding against US troops in WWII were prosecuted by the US after the war for those acts. The Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding were hanged by the United States. Clear enough?

Since then, the CIA yearbook and the State Department annual review of human rights has always listed countries that used waterboarding or similar techniques as being human rights violators.

So, since at least about 1950 or so, waterboarding has been considered torture by the US and by most of the international community.

Sorry D, if you were water boarded and come through it with that reaction, then they were amateurs and didn't do it well.
Were you partying as hard as your jailers. Well, that might influence your response a tad.

RID's point regarding the US reaction to Japans use during WWII was very enlightening and makes you wonder how US citizens could react so calmly to the Administration decision to change those for their benefit.

 

[landscaper]

Maybe, but I bet even they couldn't match Vlad the Imapler. He specialized in placing his victims in open fields, hoisted atop large sharpened stakes, that went into their ass and eventually worked their way up through their heads. Would sometimes take three days for some of them to die. At one point a large group of Ottomon soldiers came across one of these fields in the Balkans where there were thousands of people staked up. They turned around and went home.

The romans used a short dull stake...that and crucifiction were considered the slowest and most painfull method of exiting

 

[nottyboi]

The loony liberal's definition of "torture" is extremely broad. For example, playing loud music (like my stupid neighbour) is considered "torture".

I challange you to try and hold out for 48 hours non-stop with loud music blasting.

 

[oldjones]

The real question is why is anyone asking? All that crapola hypothetical stuff about, "if it would save the lives of thousands…" goes out the window when you've got the permissive laws and the implements and the torture chamber standing by. Then you're as despicable, and indefensible as the guys with the tattoo lamshades.

 

[blackrock13]

I challange you to try and hold out for 48 hours non-stop with loud music blasting.

I'm guessing you didn't attend Woodstock. Attendees got free mud facials to boot.

 

[seth gecko]

Except that it is often not a hypothetical situation. There's idealism & sense of morality, and then theres whats called "ground truth".
Harsh interrogation techniques conducted in A-stan by Afghans on (usually) other Afghans has directly & fairly immediately saved lives of Afghans, coalition troops, and countless amounts of donkeys.
I can understand how some people would want NATO troops to die, because that poor soldier may have to do a job that doesnt mesh with someones sense of morality (therefore that soldier is some evil, despicable bastard himself), and I can understand why some people won't shed a tear over some Afghan farmer dying (after all, they're medieval & primitive and "morally inferior"), but why would anyone want to see a poor, sweet little donkey get his ass blown up?? Donkeys are as affectionate and loyal as dogs! Do you condone blowing up Lassie & Benji & Snoopy & Cujo (ok, maybe Cujo.......)
Torture won't be going away anytime soon - be smart and recognize the ground truth of what happens when your soldiers operate in some 3rd world environment & make a decision based on facts. The days of massed infantry & cavalry charges, or tank battles against balanced opponents are long-gone. So, either adapt to the situation, or stop sending troops to those environments if you're going to put them at an operation disadvantage because it doesn't jive with your sense of whats fair & what isn't. Or go yourself.
As for cops using harsh techiques to solve crimes - thats IMO a different story from soldiers in the snakepit, so I'd say hold them to the different standard of whats allowable, and that should have a much MUCH MUCH lower threshold for acceptability. Again, situations differ and you wont have a clear rules that are easily transferrable.

Remember, be kind to donkeys!

 

[oldjones]

The Semrau case is a fine, real example of the conundrums serving soldiers must face, and come out the other side of with their self-respect and ours as well as that quaint concept of 'our country's honoour' intact. That's ground truth for you and there aren't easy answers. But that's exactly what this sort of thread's asking for.

If you stand for the human rigfhts, the rule of law, for treating people humanely and justly, then you do NOT make laws that excuse you—in advance—from living up to those principles. The hard, ground truth is that every individual is responsible for his own decision making in such a case, and the proper way for a society to deal with such a case is—as with Semrau—to apply the laws that we hope and pray truly do reflect the beliefs and principle we say we are defending. What are we 'defending' otherwise? Torture? The 'right' of anyone we've given a gun to to execute who they wish? How far are we from gas chambers to finally solve problems of intransigent populations?

Like the "harsh interrogation techniques"—note how reluctant those who defend it are to call it torture— that are claimed to have saved lives, Semrau's an example of the temptation to do evil for good. I cannot judge things such in advance. I do not believe anyone can. I believe anyone who claims to has already betrayed the good they pretend to be upholding. There is no readymade advance excuse for evil. Not ever.

Afterwards, I can, and we all must, be ready to examine the circumstances and motives that compelled someone to whatever forbidden acts, and we determine how best and appropriately our society should respond. We do it all the time. We call it justice, and only yesterday we recalled the millions who died to uphold justice in the world. That's the proper way to deal with your 'ground truth' gecko. Afterwards.

Of course waterboarding's hot because GeorgeII oh so manfully admitted authorizing it. Not at the time of course, because lying, prevaricating and fabricating excuses was the order of the day to keep him in office and at least nominally useful and functional. The saddest aspect of the matter (now that no one's near-drowning of course) is that we're discussing making such loathsome evil legal instead of prosecuting him for it. If he, or the swivel servants in it, had any faith that the American justice system actually delivered justice, he and they would be competing to get the People vs. George W. Bush before a competent court to be judged fairly, impartially and with true and equal justice.

And if he and others posting here are right, he'd get off with a minor penalty and an enhanced reputation. But actually living up to principles is hard; easier to live in a world of donkey jokes and easy answers. As long as it's someone else suffering. Far away.

Gangsters live by ground truth.

 

[rld]

Except that it is often not a hypothetical situation. There's idealism & sense of morality, and then theres whats called "ground truth".
Harsh interrogation techniques conducted in A-stan by Afghans on (usually) other Afghans has directly & fairly immediately saved lives of Afghans, coalition troops, and countless amounts of donkeys.
I can understand how some people would want NATO troops to die, because that poor soldier may have to do a job that doesnt mesh with someones sense of morality (therefore that soldier is some evil, despicable bastard himself), and I can understand why some people won't shed a tear over some Afghan farmer dying (after all, they're medieval & primitive and "morally inferior"), but why would anyone want to see a poor, sweet little donkey get his ass blown up?? Donkeys are as affectionate and loyal as dogs! Do you condone blowing up Lassie & Benji & Snoopy & Cujo (ok, maybe Cujo.......)
Torture won't be going away anytime soon - be smart and recognize the ground truth of what happens when your soldiers operate in some 3rd world environment & make a decision based on facts. The days of massed infantry & cavalry charges, or tank battles against balanced opponents are long-gone. So, either adapt to the situation, or stop sending troops to those environments if you're going to put them at an operation disadvantage because it doesn't jive with your sense of whats fair & what isn't. Or go yourself.
As for cops using harsh techiques to solve crimes - thats IMO a different story from soldiers in the snakepit, so I'd say hold them to the different standard of whats allowable, and that should have a much MUCH MUCH lower threshold for acceptability. Again, situations differ and you wont have a clear rules that are easily transferrable.

Remember, be kind to donkeys!

The operational disadvantage occurs when our allies use of torture becomes a recruiting tool for the enemy. That is the new reality.

 

[simon482]

Yeah and while we're at it, Simon, why don't we start chopping off the hands of thieves. We could hang them all from a string and have our school kids pose for photographs holding the severed hands.

yeah cuz that is obviously the next logical step isn't it.

 

[fuji]

Harsh interrogation techniques conducted in A-stan by Afghans on (usually) other Afghans has directly & fairly immediately saved lives of Afghans

I guess that's why we're winning the war there

 

[flubadub]

And that's why the Afghan's don't support the NATO effort any more then the Taliban.