Definition of torture

[fmahovalich]

I have always thought it was cruelty, such as breaking kneecaps, pulling out fingernails, cutting off a finger, in an effort to get a confession. Of course, lopping off someone's head in the mountains of Iraq would also fit the definition


On the other hand, things like waterboarding, or solitary confinement with no windows and total darkness, while not very nice, leave no injury, marks, or real pain, so to speak.

As it turns out, Obama moved recently to ban torture as an investigative technique. Which suggests that it WAS LEGAL WHEN IS WAS USED ON THE THREE TERRORISTS IN GUANTANAMO.

So the question - Who thinks it should be an available interrogation technique in times of war?

 

[Rockslinger]

The loony liberal's definition of "torture" is extremely broad. For example, playing loud music (like my stupid neighbour) is considered "torture".

 

[fmahovalich]

while I am not a Liberal...getting some nooky from my S.O. is torture as well!!!!

 

[blackrock13]

The loony liberal's definition of "torture" is extremely broad. For example, playing loud music (like my stupid neighbour) is considered "torture".

Suck back and reload RS, you way off base. Loud music is not torture and it got little to do with being liberal. This topic was talked about in great depth in the Political Forum. You should check it out sometime. I know that some wouldn't dare check out that dark corner of the bb.

There are all sorts of torture, some of which never leave a bruise or cut on its victims, but forever scars them. Information gained by torture is always to be question as to its reliability. Even the CIA says so in their training manuals. It can never stand alone as evidence of something. What Bush and company did was totally wrong, in that they changed the definition of torture so they could do as they wish at Gitmo. There is a line that delineates what is torture and what is not but it is a very fuzzy amorphous line dependent on so many factors. Never let it stand alone or you may have answer down the road.

 

[capncrunch]

There are at least two things wrong about torture (other than the moral argument, which should be enough by itself):

• It is ineffective. The subject is bound to say something, ANYTHING, to make it stop.
• It encourages a tit-for-tat response from the other side. That is, if we (in the West) torture Al Quaeda operatives, that may put Western soldiers at risk of torture from Al Quaeda.

There are undoubtedly more reasons.

 

[james t kirk]

Torture - The British had it down to an art under Henry 8'th.

Waterboarding - meh.

Try water boiling......"Head first, or however it comes"

I think I'd opt for feet first, by the time they got to your head, you probably would have passed out

 

[blackrock13]

while I am not a Liberal...getting some nooky from my S.O. is torture as well!!!!

I heard that.

 

[james t kirk]

Listen for the snap at the end....

 

[james t kirk]

Yikes....

 

[VW1]

Which suggests that it WAS LEGAL WHEN IS WAS USED ON THE THREE TERRORISTS IN GUANTANAMO.

Correct, Bush admits to authorizing the use of waterboarding as an interogation tactic in his new book, he has also been quoted on several media outlets stating "damn right" he authorized it.

I for one do not believe there is anything wrong with torturing someone for information, especially if you are a high ranking member of a terrorist organization. Those individuals do have a lot more information and I can guarantee that they would start spilling their guts to get it to stop.

Another technique that was used early on in the conflict with Muslim Fanatics was stripping them naked, feeding them pork, and having a woman interrogate them.

Use whatever means are necessary on those people that have no respect for the lives of others. I wouldnt have a problem if they had tortured Hitler, Stalin, OBL, or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (just for shits and giggles)!

 

[landscaper]

The romans had torture down to a fine art as well....
How ever the subject of torture is one that always has extreamists from both ends of the spectrum .

Some would say that not getting 3 squares a day and a comfy rack with 8 hrs sleep is torture

Others assume that as long as the subject survives relatively intact( definiton of intact upcoming) it is not torture.

The facts are that unless you have an independant way to verify what is being extracted torture is generally a waste of time, as has been pointed out people will tell you that it was them that killed Henry the V!!! just to make it stop.

Does it have uses in some very restricted circumstances, yes it does, again keeping in mind that you need to be able to verify the information. So to use the bomb in the city analogy, you would need at least two people who know what you want to know and you ahve to play the information off agianst each other.

Beyond that type of scenareo it has no real use, beyond terror.

We are supposed to be better than that.

 

[fmahovalich]

I would agree that info gained from torture should never stand on its own.....as he may have spoken to get it to stop....


But if what he says is proven to be correct, it would seem to verify the end by the means!!

I would think they would start slow...test his answers...see if he is truthful.

If not...a little more water is added!!

 

[Rockslinger]

Loud music is not torture

Oh no, eh. Ask your neighbour to blast his stereo 24/7 and get back to me in 10 days and tell me it is not torture. Hee, hee, hee.

 

[Rockslinger]

Ok, here is a question for the "we are morally superior" crowd. Would you break the law to save your daughter's life?

 

[Dewalt]

Bullshit, I have tried waterboarding and it wasn't that bad. I know people who party so hard in toronto that is the entertainment. I mean it sucked and your body goes through some really interesting physiological responses but it is safe. Safe enough. Beats jumper cables to the nuts...

 

[Asterix]

The romans had torture down to a fine art as well....

Maybe, but I bet even they couldn't match Vlad the Imapler. He specialized in placing his victims in open fields, hoisted atop large sharpened stakes, that went into their ass and eventually worked their way up through their heads. Would sometimes take three days for some of them to die. At one point a large group of Ottomon soldiers came across one of these fields in the Balkans where there were thousands of people staked up. They turned around and went home.

 

[Rockslinger]

They turned around and went home.

Does this mean that torture (real torture not the kid stuff we do) works? The Ottoman Turks were a tough bunch and they turned and walked?

 

[seth gecko]

You'd have about as much luck banning torture as you'd have in banning rape or murder or any other form of violence.
I don't beleive there's anyone who actively promotes the use of harsh interrogation techniques, but as already pointed out, there are instances where its use has saved lives. Info needs to be timely and actionable.....uncover a bomb-making op & rough up the occupants to get details necessary to save lives. Keep roughing the occupants up after holding them for 6 months, then that stops being a useful tool in your toolbox and becomes plain ol' revenge. Nothing positive will come of that.
Anybody here ever go through a SERE or R2I course? Terrorist organizations have included similar (if not identical, thank-you-very-much Ali Mohammed) courses for their members - techniques on how to resist interrogation. So theres a very good chance that the worst we can do to an extremist (sleep deprivation, short-shackling, psych-outs, etc etc) upon catching him, he's already been through it in some training camp in Sa'ada or Jalalabad, and he's learned that its not as bad as it feels (yes, you read that right)
Today, Canadians gathered around monuments or office water-coolers or in their classroom & at 11am reflected on the significance of the day (that commemorates military and civilian sacrifices in past wars), but we need to reflect on the present and future conflicts, where old rules don't necessarily apply, and clinging to them may put us at a serious disadvantage. We're not using iceboxes to chill our veggies, or whale-oil lamps to light our homes, but we're clinging to some outdated concepts in a very rapidly evolving area.
Recognize that "torture" may have some practical applications and set down some criteria of who, when, how, etc etc. Like any tool, its better to have it available and never need to use it, than to need it in an emergency and not have it available.

 

[Asterix]

Does this mean that torture (real torture not the kid stuff we do) works? The Ottoman Turks were a tough bunch and they turned and walked?

No it means Vlad was one psychotic fuck. It didn't do him any good. The Turks defeated him eventually.

 

[blackrock13]

Oh no, eh. Ask your neighbour to blast his stereo 24/7 and get back to me in 10 days and tell me it is not torture. Hee, hee, hee.

Just because you don't like Conway Twittty doesn't mean you can call it torture. Try earplugs and laugh at him. It's the sleep deprivation caused by the 24/7 music that is torture.
If loud music was torture, The ACC would be charged as an accomplice after every concert.

I thank the gods that I don't have to make that kind of decision at this time in my life, just like every other Solomon-like decision. I'll make my choice and make my peace when and if the time comes to do so.