Will North America recover economically, politically, culturally?

[GotGusto]

Government control of immigration rests on a presumption that government owns all of the land, as does property tax (rent) and expropriation (eviction).

This should come as no surprise because government has also presumed to own citizens' bodies (draft, sterilization) and labour (draft, income tax).

But individuals should own land and individuals should decide who is welcome and who is trespassing on their land.

Ask "the people" of any nation and they will gladly tell you that they do not want just anybody coming into their country.

If your views on immigration were ever implemented it would be utterly disastrous for the country.

 

[GotGusto]

To the original poster...you may not be aware that there are other places in the world where things are much better than in the USA...people are better off, governements have less debt or no debt, healthcare is not a problem, and people don't have the scourge of the fundamentalist christian taliban to worry about.

List as many of them as you can.

 

[Rockslinger]

there are other places in the world where things are much better than in the USA...

I can easily name two: Canada and Singapore. Somebody might throw in Norway, Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Dragon.i]

Why am I wrong?

1) I believe that Globalization is the new Great Equalizer. The fruits of imperialism that we've enjoyed for centuries is coming to a close. As a result, I foresee the growth of an underclass and the shrinking of the middle class (conversely, a small increase in the middle class in places like China for a small minority of people).

2) I foresee continue unabated 3rd world immigration (Asian, India, EE) to 1st world nations and bringing with them lots of cultural baggage (honor killings, Allah Akbar etc, you name it). We will live in a vast sea of multiculturalism where we don't speak the same language as our neighbors or go to the same banks because there is no English on the entrance signs. How does this make us stronger or better?

3) Individual and national debts are out of control, and programs that can never be paid for (e.g. Health Care) are coming to a head. Few people are going to enjoy any sort of retirement like grandpa did. People who are broke as fuck are still running around buying the latest $300 electronic gadgets. Where will these people be when they get old?

4) Culturally, we're at a crossroads. Everywhere I look, I see people who have no understanding of history or sense of self - they don't appreciate how priviledged they are and why. They have no direction and squander much of what this great society offers them. These types of people often believe that liberalism is the antidote to all of society's ills when much of what ails society has been the destruction and de-construction of conversvatism.

5) Taxes are on the rise as are government official's salaries. Government is growing larger every year. We're powerless to stop any of it.

Similar happenings signaled the end of civilizations in the past.

Please explain why my beliefs are completely retarded and how everything is going to be good again, and why our best days are ahead of us rather than behind us. Having been born in the late 70s in North America, I feel like I've lived in the greatest times known in human history. Will generations after me even be able to comprehend how good life was for people like me?

1. Globalization in trade will benefit the major trading blocks - i.e BRICs. However, the developed countries will still prosper and grow provided they maintain a good economic policies (unlike Greece, which is destablizing the EUROZONE). China has a HUGE middle class, not a tiny one.

2. Migration will continue unless there is xenophobia on a large scale by the West such that immigration polcies would be adversely affected. The "cultural baggage" is a small consequence of immigration and does not outweigh a talented and educated pool of people coming over.

3. Practice sound economic policies. USA must address it's runaway consumerism attitude and save. Save big time.

4. Liberalism. Well, what do you expect when the USA and Canada (as follower of the USA) does is promote unbridled, wholesale democracy and freedom.

5. Practice sound fiscal & monetary policies and you'll have surplus. Practice bad fiscal & monetary policies, the Fed will have to raise taxes. Just ask Greece.

 

[Rockslinger]

Ask "the people" of any nation and they will gladly tell you that they do not want just anybody coming into their country.

Just ask the Japanese and Arabs how they feel about letting foreigners into their country. The only reason foreigners go to an Arab country is for work. Westerners go there because of the high danger pay and Filipinos go there because they can make decent money and but are treated like dirt. Rock: You are being politically incorrect again.

 

[blackrock13]

List as many of them as you can.

There have numerous surveys over the years with different perimeters for measuring quality of life in different countries and the US seldom makes into the top 5 or 10.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/best-country-live-list-countries-2009-un-hdi

http://www.internationalliving.com/Internal-Components/Further-Resources/quality-of-life-2010

 

[GotGusto]

Just ask the Japanese and Arabs how they feel about letting foreigners into their country. The only reason foreigners go to an Arab country is for work. Westerners go there because of the high danger pay and Filipinos go there because they can make decent money and but are treated like dirt. Rock: You are being politically incorrect again.

The Japanese policy is somewhat understandable. The population of Japan is comparatively small. If they allowed immigration on any significant scale, Japanese people would quickly become a minority.

Nobody in their right mind wants to live in Arab countries. Their borders could be wide open and they wouldn't experience an immigration problem.

 

[GotGusto]

The wild card in this is science and engineering

We have yet to begin to see the wonders that the geniuses at M.I.T. etc will create

True, but aside from curing diseases so that we live longer, developing technologies that allow us to harvest earth's resources more effectively to the point of depletion, and modernizing instruments of war, what specifically are you referring to or are hoping to see from science and engineering?

 

[GotGusto]

1. Globalization in trade will benefit the major trading blocks - i.e BRICs. However, the developed countries will still prosper and grow provided they maintain a good economic policies (unlike Greece, which is destablizing the EUROZONE). China has a HUGE middle class, not a tiny one.

2. Migration will continue unless there is xenophobia on a large scale by the West such that immigration polcies would be adversely affected. The "cultural baggage" is a small consequence of immigration and does not outweigh a talented and educated pool of people coming over.

3. Practice sound economic policies. USA must address it's runaway consumerism attitude and save. Save big time.

4. Liberalism. Well, what do you expect when the USA and Canada (as follower of the USA) does is promote unbridled, wholesale democracy and freedom.

5. Practice sound fiscal & monetary policies and you'll have surplus. Practice bad fiscal & monetary policies, the Fed will have to raise taxes. Just ask Greece.

1) What are good economic policies? I'll have to do more reading about Greece, but I'll bet they were run into the ground by being a welfare state. We seem inclined on following their lead.
I don't have any figures - just how huge is China's middleclass compared to the overall Chinese population?

2) That's not going to happen. Xenophobia in the West is dead. I believe the consequences of mass immigration go beyond issues of cultural baggage, but we'll see. You may be right.

3) There is debate over what sound economic policy means with regarding to Health Care in the US right now.

4) Yeah

5) See #3

 

[bob2613]

Will North America recover economically, politically, culturally?


1) I believe that Globalization is the new Great Equalizer

I believe depleting resources is the great equalizer. Energy is a "super" commodity that allows everything else to be done. Walk around and look see "emboidied" energy. Globalization requires cheap, available energy. Depletion and climate change would seem to game changers. http://www.businessinsider.com/peak-demand-is-coming-but-not-the-good-kind-2010-3

Currently need to be adding the equivalent of 4 Saudi Arabias every decade or so to maintain economic growth as it is today. IEA most recent report in 2009

Our economic models are scaled to run on cheap energy and available energy. Don't have that and you won't have growth and our future is one of economic contraction and personal reduction until we reach a sustainable global level.

2) I foresee continue unabated 3rd world immigration

3rd world immigration is driven by population growth out of control. Much of it generated by the "green revolution" in the 70's with the application of fertilizers, pesticidies and mechanized agriculture. Dependent upon cheap fossil fuels. See "Eating Fossil Fuels"
http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Fossil...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269122089&sr=1-1

With soil depletion in the 3rd world, fish stocks disappeared in many parts of the third world can't blame people for scrambling to go where they think they may eat.

Population is the driver for why the world cannot all be the OECD.
http://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269122010&sr=1-1

Might want to revisit Malthus


3) Individual and national debts are out of control.
Quite. Capitalism seems to have evolved to just finacial capitalists out to screw people to maximize their own income. Debt based system is predicated on future growth and profits at the individual, corporate and country level to allow the debt to be paid back. As commodity prices rise, unemployment grows, salaries remain stagnant and the nominal interest rate buggers us, discretionary income for all shrinks. Becomes a catch 22 and grows resulting in destablization. Watch to see which nation state falls apart first. Greece, Mexico, Egypt, a Caribbean nation.....

Talking heads all seem to think China will save us all but when has a centrally run economy proven to be efficient in the past. They too are running up huge debt for projects lining communist party member pockets.


4) Culturally, we're at a crossroads
Been at a crossroads for thousands of years. Small planet


5) Taxes are on the rise as are government official's salaries
Nah. Just to upgrade the electrical grid in North America is estimated to a trillion dollars. Road system in North America needs billions if not more. How many water mains break in major cities in the OECD now that they are 30 yrs old plus. With nation state conflict likely to rise over resources can add in armed force demanding increased share of the pie. Need to increase taxes just to pay for Giambrone's cab fares let alone other politician perks.

Shrinking tax base as companies go under or downsize reduce tax income. Fewer paid employees reduce tax income. CDN Federal gov't will likey reduce employees. US Gov't, US states, US cities have already started that process a while ago. US Postal service for the first time in its history has laid a few thousand people with more to come.


Will North America recover economically, politically, culturally? Personally I suspect we are in the start or middle of a structural change globally on the carrying capacity of the planet. Some whitepapers have suggested we need to reduce the population to 2 billion or. Other cornucupians have suggested we can keep on growing just need better technology.

Most energy used currently is fossil fuel which is a finite amount of concentrated solar energy stored and refined over a million years in a useable product. Only new source of energy developed ever has been nuclear which accounts for 15-20% of global energy after being "found" in the 1940's.

I'm no longer a small "c" conservative. Follow more E. Daly and sustainable economic growth.

The Collapse of Complex Societies by Joseph Tainter
http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Comp...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269123414&sr=1-1

Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared Diamond
http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Soci...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269123438&sr=1-1

Bottleneck: Humanity's Impending Impasse
http://www.amazon.com/Bottleneck-Hu...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269123534&sr=1-2

 

[GotGusto]

There have numerous surveys over the years with different perimeters for measuring quality of life in different countries and the US seldom makes into the top 5 or 10.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/best-country-live-list-countries-2009-un-hdi

http://www.internationalliving.com/Internal-Components/Further-Resources/quality-of-life-2010

The US beat out Canada in the 2010 ranking in your second link and is ranked #7. Six countries rank above America on this subjective scale. That's not a whole lot. Your first link is from 2009 and the numbers are reversed. All things being equal it's surprising considering the economic beating that America is taking.

Anyway, from this we're to believe that it is better to live in America than in Canada in 2010?

I don't put much stock into these rankings. But it does affirm that it is pretty good to live in America.

 

[Toke]

List as many of them as you can.

Here they are... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

 

[GotGusto]

Here they are... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

Looks to me like America ranks quite well so it's no wonder that Americans are completely happy staying in America. Not to mention America's unique position in the world. You can't be #1 at everything at all times.

 

[Questor]

But when people are buying from the drug trade, they are not buying from their neighbour. They are buying from international cartels that are involved in unimaginable violence and intimidation and social disaster and catastrophe all across the world. All across the world. You know, and I just wish people would understand that, and not just on drugs. Even when people buy, you know, an illegal carton of cigarettes and they avoid tax, that they really understand the kind of criminal networks that they are supporting, and the damage they do."

Is he talking about the CIA? Or is he arguing in favour of drug legalization, which would cut out the criminal networks, just like it did for alcohol?

Also, nowhere did I say there should be no defense, health care, garbage collection, etc. I would just like to see these things funded by a method other than coercion.

Are you suggesting that we raise the money with bingo and bake sales? Come on. This is a silly position you are taking. Your position is a de facto position against those government services because it is not possible to have those services without a "coercive" tax system.

Would it be okay for a cable comapny (with which you signed no contract) to withold part of your pay cheque or to throw you in jail for non-payment? I ask only that government follows the same rules as the rest of us.

Well, I guess it would be okay for the cable company to withold your pay cheque or throw you in jail for non-payment if we elected it to do so. On the other hand, I think you did sign a contract with the government when you accepted to live in our society. The contract is called the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

 

[someone]

It seems to me that you have economic theory down pat,

Actually, he knows absolutely nothing about economic theory. If you think otherwise, I have to conclude that you also don't know much about economics.

 

[GotGusto]

Actually, he knows absolutely nothing about economic theory. If you think otherwise, I have to conclude that you also don't know much about economics.

I was being facetious, however he does, in fact, have economic theory down pat. I don't agree with it (no two economists agree on much, and I'm not even an economist), but there are economists who would agree entirely with him.

As one who clearly believes he has a monopoly on economic understanding, let's here it. The floor is yours.

 

[y2kmark]

Stocking up on ammo??

 

[Insidious Von]

The view is too narrow

4. Resource depletion means there will not be Bluefin Tuna soon, and similarly there isn't enough oil/food/water for the world to live at American standards. Only now, Americans can't afford American standards.

The consumer society will soon be history. The Bluefin tuna will be extinct within the next five years with the oceans expected to become sterile by 2055. Humanity as the apex predator cannot survive with a food chain that's been culled of it's most vital species.

http://www.sciencenewsblog.com/blog/1106061

 

[Rockslinger]

The Bluefin tuna will be extinct within the next five years

The Bluefin tuna is already contaminated with mercury but the Japanese still want to eat it to extinction. What's the name of that poisionous Japanese fish (puffer?)? Actually, at the rate Japan is depopulating, the Japanese could be extinct in 2090.

 

[blackrock13]

The US beat out Canada in the 2010 ranking in your second link and is ranked #7. Six countries rank above America on this subjective scale. That's not a whole lot. Your first link is from 2009 and the numbers are reversed. All things being equal it's surprising considering the economic beating that America is taking.

Anyway, from this we're to believe that it is better to live in America than in Canada in 2010?

I don't put much stock into these rankings. But it does affirm that it is pretty good to live in America.

That was only a short list that I could quickly put my hands on and I'm not comparing just Canada and the US, but all the 200+ countries. I could have brought in the longevity list and we all know where the US sits on that list.

I know the lists are subjective, but that's why the caveat on the parameters, yet but as a group they do show trends. The only people who don't like lists tend to be the ones who don't do well, just like politicians and polls.