Will North America recover economically, politically, culturally?

[GotGusto]

Why am I wrong?

1) I believe that Globalization is the new Great Equalizer. The fruits of imperialism that we've enjoyed for centuries is coming to a close. As a result, I foresee the growth of an underclass and the shrinking of the middle class (conversely, a small increase in the middle class in places like China for a small minority of people).

2) I foresee continue unabated 3rd world immigration (Asian, India, EE) to 1st world nations and bringing with them lots of cultural baggage (honor killings, Allah Akbar etc, you name it). We will live in a vast sea of multiculturalism where we don't speak the same language as our neighbors or go to the same banks because there is no English on the entrance signs. How does this make us stronger or better?

3) Individual and national debts are out of control, and programs that can never be paid for (e.g. Health Care) are coming to a head. Few people are going to enjoy any sort of retirement like grandpa did. People who are broke as fuck are still running around buying the latest $300 electronic gadgets. Where will these people be when they get old?

4) Culturally, we're at a crossroads. Everywhere I look, I see people who have no understanding of history or sense of self - they don't appreciate how priviledged they are and why. They have no direction and squander much of what this great society offers them. These types of people often believe that liberalism is the antidote to all of society's ills when much of what ails society has been the destruction and de-construction of conversvatism.

5) Taxes are on the rise as are government official's salaries. Government is growing larger every year. We're powerless to stop any of it.

Similar happenings signaled the end of civilizations in the past.

Please explain why my beliefs are completely retarded and how everything is going to be good again, and why our best days are ahead of us rather than behind us. Having been born in the late 70s in North America, I feel like I've lived in the greatest times known in human history. Will generations after me even be able to comprehend how good life was for people like me?

 

[markvee]

As people are increasingly taxed, they are decreasingly motivated to produce because the fruits of their labor are stolen through taxation, while unproductive parasites are motivated immigrate here to feed on the booty.

The system collapses as the demotivated productive sector joins the parasite sector.

Free of taxation and regulations (such as minimum wage laws that make unskilled work illegal), which a bankrupt government can no longer enforce, we should welcome all immigrants because they will be attracted by the prospect of keeping the fruits of their labor; North America, which has destroyed itself through borrowing and consuming, will be rebuilt on renewed production and saving.

Liberalism (from the Latin libertas: of freedom), correctly defined as a belief in the importance of individucal freedom (incorrectly defined as belief in a nanny welfare state), is the antidote.

Conservatism (from the Latin conservare: to preserve) is not a useful term unless you describe what is to be preserved. Conservatism could also be the antidote if you are talking about conserving something like the Declaration of Independence of the United States:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

 

[oldjones]

I'm willing to bet the some guy in the town of Hochelaga was complaining about the chiefs' self-importance, about the wasteful ways of farming that were destroying the land, the over-hunting that made game ever harder to find and youth's ignorance of the old ways. But, just like you, he probably felt, even though everything was going to ratshit, he still was glad to have been here at the apex of his peoples' power.

And then he wondered what were those honkin' great canoes coming up the St Lawrence.

It's a bigger world and the questions are way bigger than you can even ask, let alone answer. And nobody in times gone by ever said, "Man, I wish I coulda been born in the late twentieth century".

As a wise man once said when asked his advice about similar questions, "Cultivez ton jardin".

 

[Medman52]

why our best days are ahead of us

Because I am in control of my life and I plan to make every day a positive, meaningful one as long as I am healthy enough to do so, regardless of the negativity around me.

 

[y2kmark]

Just don't mistake neocons for real conservatives ...

Why am I wrong?

4) Culturally, we're at a crossroads. Everywhere I look, I see people who have no understanding of history or sense of self - they don't appreciate how priviledged they are and why. They have no direction and squander much of what this great society offers them. These types of people often believe that liberalism is the antidote to all of society's ills when much of what ails society has been the destruction and de-construction of conversvatism.

Remember the first "arab oil crisis" Jimmy Carter (a better conservative in some ways than most of today's neocons) warned the country as a whole that it was time for hard choices - we couldn't consume indefinitely and never have to pay up. Along comes that CHUMP/SUPER FOOL Ronnie Reagan to say "sure we can, why not" If there's a downward economic spiral, the roots of the worst of it are right there. Actual working poeple (as opposed to jumped-up middle men) have been increasingly "trickled down" on ever since. And let's not start about religious fanatacism used as justification for a police state with nearly 10% of the adult population in some form of detention either!

 

[5hummer]

History has shown us all empires crumble ...

 

[GotGusto]

As people are increasingly taxed, they are decreasingly motivated to produce because the fruits of their labor are stolen through taxation, while unproductive parasites are motivated immigrate here to feed on the booty.

The system collapses as the demotivated productive sector joins the parasite sector.

Free of taxation and regulations (such as minimum wage laws that make unskilled work illegal), which a bankrupt government can no longer enforce, we should welcome all immigrants because they will be attracted by the prospect of keeping the fruits of their labor; North America, which has destroyed itself through borrowing and consuming, will be rebuilt on renewed production and saving.

This would all be fine if economics was the only important factor in a society. But it's not. You can't just import immigrants en masse and think that's going to solve all the problems. Mass immigration causes its own problems as I've tried to outline above (only touching the surface).

Liberalism (from the Latin libertas: of freedom), correctly defined as a belief in the importance of individucal freedom (incorrectly defined as belief in a nanny welfare state), is the antidote.

Ok fine, Classic Liberalism vs Modern Liberals

Conservatism (from the Latin conservare: to preserve) is not a useful term unless you describe what is to be preserved. Conservatism could also be the antidote if you are talking about conserving something like the Declaration of Independence of the United States:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That is what I'm referring to among other things. These things are not unrelated. They form the bedrock of our culture. When the State attempts to steal from you, it is infringing on your life, liberty, and pursuit of Happiness.

 

[Keebler Elf]

So really what you're saying is you want Western culture to remain white, middle class, and conservative.

Wow. Deep thinking.

 

[hairyfucker]

Keep what you kill.

 

[GotGusto]

I'm willing to bet the some guy in the town of Hochelaga was complaining about the chiefs' self-importance, about the wasteful ways of farming that were destroying the land, the over-hunting that made game ever harder to find and youth's ignorance of the old ways. But, just like you, he probably felt, even though everything was going to ratshit, he still was glad to have been here at the apex of his peoples' power.

And then he wondered what were those honkin' great canoes coming up the St Lawrence.

That's clever. I've heard it put this way "history doesn't repeat itself, but it sure rhymes a lot". There was the fall Egypt, later Greece, then Rome, British Imperialism and so on. Yet after each collapse of power, civilization re-emerged in bigger better form. I'm not denying the possibility that what we have today may be replaced by something better (although I have grave doubts), but I am saying that it sucks to be Egypt, Greece, Rome, or Britain today. These once great powers are either 3rd world shitholes or socialist trash, and mere shadows on the world stage.

My question really doesn't pertain to me very much at all. Like Medman52, I am in control of my life. I've already begun making plans to jettison myself from here when I'm financially ready, to live where there is greater return on my money. I no longer feel any significant allegiance to the nation of my birth. I'm all for me and only me now.

It's a bigger world and the questions are way bigger than you can even ask, let alone answer.

My questions aren't existential. They have concrete answers and time will reveal them. Educated predictions can be made.

 

[GotGusto]

So really what you're saying is you want Western culture to remain white, middle class, and conservative.

Wow. Deep thinking.

That's not what I wrote. I don't know where you got those references.

 

[GotGusto]

are you seriously saying that when people immigrated from Europe to the US in the late 19th/early 20th century they didn't bring their baggage with them? e.g discrimination against the Irish

There was plenty of baggage, and that's why immigration in the late 19th/early 20th century was severely limited and ultimately stopped. This was done to allow time for integration and I believe it was successful. Immigration is important and may be necessary. Flooding nations with immigrants is something different altogether.

 

[Questor]

I am saying that it sucks to be Egypt, Greece, Rome, or Britain today. These once great powers are either 3rd world shitholes or socialist trash, and mere shadows on the world stage.

Wow. We are all really impressed with your enlightened view of different cultures. I bet you eat at McDonalds and vacation at Disney World.

My question really doesn't pertain to me very much at all. Like Medman52, I am in control of my life. I've already begun making plans to jettison myself from here when I'm financially ready, to live where there is greater return on my money. I no longer feel any significant allegiance to the nation of my birth. I'm all for me and only me now.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. LOL

 

[GotGusto]

I bet you eat at McDonalds and vacation at Disney World.

You'd lose that bet, although I've always wanted to go to Disney World.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. LOL

Alright.

 

[flubadub]

1. Globalization is based on cheap oil. Now that we're running out of the cheap stuff expect a slowing of global commerce.

2. See #1

3. Government debt is out of control because taxes have been reduced on corporations and the wealthy, and transfered to the middle class and poor. See Ronald Reagan through to Stephen Harper.

4. Resource depletion means there will not be Bluefin Tuna soon, and similarly there isn't enough oil/food/water for the world to live at American standards. Only now, Americans can't afford American standards.

5. See #3. Vote left wing. Right wing policies lead to reduced taxes on the rich, deficits and reduced social spending. See Paul Martin vs Brian Mulroney.

 

[ogibowt]

Markwee, and Got Gusto, are Ayn Rand, social darwinist types..so be it...but i always find that most 20th and 21st century societies that severely cut off immigration and have significantly low taxation rates are backward societies...i always have a problem with people being referred to as parisites..i guess its the bleeding heart in me...and finally, i think that if i had to spend more than 2 minutes with those two posters, i would throw up in my mouth..sorry the "insulting" Ogibowt just surfaced..

 

[james t kirk]

How long have human beings been on this earth?

10,000 years, 50,000 years? I'm not even sure.

But the middle class in Western Society has been around maybe 500 years (if that). It (the middle class) could disappear and it wouldn't even rate as a speck in the history of Human Beings. I'm not Union appologist, but when you listen to allot of these right wingers talk about what we need to do and how things should be you can't help but be struck that at the heart of it all, what they want is to have all the pie. To reduce our society to a few haves (them of course) and a whole lot of have nots (everyone else). I often think of Conrad Black and how arrogant a fucker he could be - how he dressed up like a Cardinal and wanted to be a "Lord" because in his heart, he felt that he was modern royalty and the rest of us were just his serfs.

 

[GotGusto]

Markwee, and Got Gusto, are Ayn Rand, social darwinist types..so be it...but i always find that most 20th and 21st century societies that severely cut off immigration and have significantly low taxation rates are backward societies...i always have a problem with people being referred to as parisites..i guess its the bleeding heart in me...and finally, i think that if i had to spend more than 2 minutes with those two posters, i would throw up in my mouth..sorry the "insulting" Ogibowt just surfaced..

I did not call people parasites. I'm the one defending people against government overreach.

 

[ClassAct]

I think we are reaching an inflection point, where we are beginging to form a two-class society. In the top class will be 10% of the country's population. To be in the top 10% you must either:

1. Work for (or be paid directly by) the government (Politician, Policeman, TTC employee, doctor, military officer).
2. Have the financial resources at your disposal in order to influence the government to pass laws that work in your favour. (Wall Street's influence over the United States government is a perfect example of this).

The remaining 90% of the population will be effectively slaves to the top 10%. If you doubt whether such a two-tier class system can be sustained for long, look no further than to many countries in Asia, where this type of societal structure has exisited for centuries. Or even look at many communist dictatorships of the past and present that exhibit these characterisics.

I think the relatively free and democratic system that North America, in particular, has enjoyed over the last few hundred years has been more of an anomaly. Human nature and game theory both predict that civilization tends to move towards the more stable state of kleptocracy than democracy.

 

[GotGusto]

1. Globalization is based on cheap oil. Now that we're running out of the cheap stuff expect a slowing of global commerce.

2. See #1

When we run out of the cheap stuff completely, will this lead to better things or worse?

3. Government debt is out of control because taxes have been reduced on corporations and the wealthy, and transfered to the middle class and poor. See Ronald Reagan through to Stephen Harper.

When you try to start a business the government nearly destroys you before you get started. Fees & taxes everywhere. You're almost better off working a 9 to 5. Corporations shouldn't be taxed at all. The wealthy pay lots of taxes. Should they pay more? Maybe. You detest business fat cats but you're perfectly ok with fat cats so long as they work for the government. Government debt isn't simply out of control because of reduced taxes, it's out of control because of government spending. Government spends the way that it does because it is your money. It's easy to spend other people's money.

5. See #3. Vote left wing. Right wing policies lead to reduced taxes on the rich, deficits and reduced social spending. See Paul Martin vs Brian Mulroney.

I don't think it's so black and white. I could reply with - voting left wing brings you higher taxes, bigger government that runs up deficits and irresponsible social spending - but that'd be playing the tired left-right game.