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Revoke Smoking Ban In Toronto?

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,765
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Actually the smell of cigarette smoke does bother me a lot more than it used to. Now that I can enjoy most of my life w/o having to breathe it in, it is very noticeable (and disgusting) when I am around it.
OK
You just be sure to let me know when the thought of a older gentleman engaging a young hooker bothers you more than it bothers you now.
That way I can properly adjust my behavior to your changing values.

There has to be some compromise on the smoking issue, less you be caught with a vice that is subject to the changing whims of zealots
 

tboy

resident smartass
Aug 18, 2001
15,972
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way out in left field
Sometimes, and Clubs where citizens can smoke and kill are instances of such, Governments pass regulations (ie: health and safety, and so on) to stop citizens from doing stupid things to themselves.
Kind of like clubs that serve alcohol then the imbibers go out and drive? get into fights? assault innocent bystanders????
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,765
2,401
113
OK. I quote your precise words:
What you said was: That you wanted (in caps) the right—which you presumably also wanted for others as well—to smoke in your car with a child. Although you said you wouldn't (since adding "never"), no one cannot offer that assurance about anyone else. Without in any way doubting your good intention, if you reserve that 'right' for yourself, we then have no assurance about you either. But such a law can give society at least a little confidence that children are not subject to abuse by smokers, who might choose differently than you.

For generations we took good intentions by smokers as good enough. It didn't work.
OK now you are a super idiot
You have a rather annoying habit of twisting words within a quote
Let me be very clear. I will type slowly so that even you may understand
This is not about my right to expose a child to smoke. As I painfully explained I would not do that

It is about my right to decide what is appropriate within the confines of my property, which includes my car
It is about my right not to have storm troopers such as yourself decide which of my behaviors is acceptable.
If there was any hint of some compromise then I am sure that a workable law could be enacted & upheld.
But no. You and the rest of the anti-smoker lot are adamant that you are absolutely right in your position and there is no way that a common ground can be found (ie. smoking in an open outdoor patio, a special smoking section away from the main part of a bar etc)

You whine about assurances
Let me be clear. I do not owe you or anyone else an assurance. Period
The sooner you figure that out the better off we all will be

If you want complete control and assurance, I suggest you relocate to North Korea, join the party and trample on peoples rights to your hearts content

For generations we humored the left wing control freaks as harmless with good intentions. It didn't work
 

Moraff

Active member
Nov 14, 2003
3,648
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36
OK
You just be sure to let me know when the thought of a older gentleman engaging a young hooker bothers you more than it bothers you now.
That way I can properly adjust my behavior to your changing values.

Not sure why you're getting bent at me, I just answered the question you posed earlier. But rest assured that as long as the gentleman and lady in question are acting on their own free will you won't have to adjust your behaviour. :)


There has to be some compromise on the smoking issue, less you be caught with a vice that is subject to the changing whims of zealots
There is some compromise between smokers and those that would have them eradicated. You are still allowed to smoke on the street, in your car (assuming it's not a work vehicle and/or there are no minors), and in your home after all.

Would it be nice if there was a way to have smokers exercise their right to smoke alongside the non-smokers exercising their rights not to inhale the smoke? Certainly. Can it be easily done? I don't think so. Not only would establishments have to install completely separate HVAC systems, but the exhausted air would also have to be treated I would imagine. I used to walk by a bingo hall back in the 90s... there was so much smoking being done that you couldn't see from one side of the hall to the other through the windows (sure as hell wasn't going in!) and at the back you could see clouds of smoke being exhausted out from inside the building. Whole neighbour downwind of it would reek of cigarette smoke.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,490
11
38
It's simple.…edit…
It's anything but that, Blue-Spheroid. From protecting children in cars, to workers in general employment to the specific possibilities and difficulties of employment in non-optional smoke environments, it can get very complicated.

But if we discard the OP's suggestion that we go back to free-for-all, and if we ignore the sidebar of kids in cars, then it really comes down to those hypothetical 'for smokers' establishments, and whether you can devise a law to allow such—and employees in them—that doesn't at the same time license if not outright encourage abuses elsewhere. Which is why the mere warning, "We're all a buncha, racist, faggot-hatting, sexist bigots here. Can't handle it, apply elsewhere model isn't good enough.

It's quite true that even with safety equipment, some jobs are inherently dangerous. Like farming. Hydro workers have way better safety records. Partly because of all that employer-provided gear, which self-employed farmers often skimp on. And it's also true that although Hyro workers don't give up their right to refuse unsafe work, they also don't get to suddenly 'discover' pole-climbing is unsafe after being hired. The deal is that they'll do the work and the employer will make it as safe as possible. That's why they don't do much pole climbing any more, and use bucket trucks instead.

To be a similar employment situation, the fume-filled smoke club would have to allow its staff frequent fresh air breaks and/or oxygen, supply appropriate masks or respirators, and install fume hoods over every seating position. Not impossible or even terribly expensive, and—as in the Hydro case—no guarantee of 100% safety, but a similar 'best efforts' recognition of the dangers the employer's asking the employees to face.

We long ago moved beyond the era of The Jungle where any working conditions at all, no matter how unsafe, unsanitary or unhealthy could be imposed on workers because of their desperation for jobs. That's why we have all those health and safety laws that supposedly have made unions unecessary. And this one, that finally made workplaces smoke-free, after we suffered our deskmates' and shopmates' pollution for so long, is just another of those.

For them as wants to change it: Instead of ranting and whining, get serious and make realistic proposals that can give you your place to indulge your vice without abusing others. So far this five page thread hasn't had a single such suggestion.

PS: I'm sorta surprised you stuck with the very-geared up Hydro workers as your analogy. Wouldn't trapeze artists and circus performers be better examples of folks who 'choose danger'? 'Course one imagines they get paid a bit better than the average wait-staff for doing so.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,011
7
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Smoking ban is the best thing that ever happened in this city. I enjoymy evenings out SO MUCH MORE now that I don't have to content with that disgusting smell getting into everything, including my lungs.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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If as a bar owner I was allowed to declare MY establishment smoke friendly who's rights would I be violating?
Your employees. As for "happily help my employees who DIDN'T want to work there find jobs in non-smoking environments" that's bullshit, are you willing to pay their salaries while they sit at home looking for a job? Note that even employees who PREVIOUSLY felt OK about working in a dangerous environment have the right to change their mind AT ANY MOMENT.

Moreover, would you be willing to reimburse the taxpayer for all their future healthcare problems?
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,490
11
38
OK now you are a super idiot
You have a rather annoying habit of twisting words within a quote
Let me be very clear. I will type slowly so that even you may understand
This is not about my right to expose a child to smoke. As I painfully explained I would not do that

It is about my right to decide what is appropriate within the confines of my property, which includes my car
It is about my right not to have storm troopers such as yourself decide which of my behaviors is acceptable.
If there was any hint of some compromise then I am sure that a workable law could be enacted & upheld.
But no. You and the rest of the anti-smoker lot are adamant that you are absolutely right in your position and there is no way that a common ground can be found (ie. smoking in an open outdoor patio, a special smoking section away from the main part of a bar etc)

You whine about assurances
Let me be clear. I do not owe you or anyone else an assurance. Period
The sooner you figure that out the better off we all will be

If you want complete control and assurance, I suggest you relocate to North Korea, join the party and trample on peoples rights to your hearts content

For generations we humored the left wing control freaks as harmless with good intentions. It didn't work
For generations we hoped smokers would consider other peoples' rights. My fathers' generation actually had a quaintly archaic ritual, long gone before he died, of asking, "Mind if I smoke?" as they flicked their lighters. No even asked, for years before the law. Smokers got what anti-social barbarians usually get: controlled.

Far from twisting them, I take you at your word. Perhaps you should consider them more carefully. That Post Quick Reply button can be bad for you.

It is about my right to decide what is appropriate within the confines of my property, which includes my car
What, rape and kill your passengers? Waggle your weenie out the window? Drink B52s? Inject cocaine? Far from clarifying a reasonable position, you've made your unreasonable one even more open ended and extreme.

As I seemed to annoy you by saying before: your mere assurance that you will not do such things is not good enough. We made laws on such matters. They don't bother and usually aren't the concern of those who have no intention of breaking them. But the consensus is that they are useful in controlling those without such good behaviour patterns. So we don't inveigh against them as oppressive, because we don't need them ourselves, we accept them as an overall good thing.

Sorry to inform you, but while you're asserting your 'right' to be un-encumbered by a law you don't need, you're giving the same right to someone who 'needed' that law lest they abuse a child. Just like your right to free speech means you're giving it to a 'North Korean party member candidate' like me. And for all anyone knows that could be you. Especially since—although you repeated you would never do such a thing—now you claim you owe no one any asurances.

But if you don't owe any of us any assurance—that is what you said—that you'll behave in a law-abiding socially-acceptable manner, then you too will get laws that dictate to you.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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There should be a $500 fine for throwing a cigarette butt on the sidewalk. Ditto for spitting chewing gum on the sidewalk.

What turns me against smokers more than anything else is their lack of regard for anyone else or the immediate environment around them.
 

tboy

resident smartass
Aug 18, 2001
15,972
2
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63
way out in left field
Your employees. As for "happily help my employees who DIDN'T want to work there find jobs in non-smoking environments" that's bullshit, are you willing to pay their salaries while they sit at home looking for a job? Note that even employees who PREVIOUSLY felt OK about working in a dangerous environment have the right to change their mind AT ANY MOMENT.

Moreover, would you be willing to reimburse the taxpayer for all their future healthcare problems?
and yes, they have the right to leave and find employment elsewhere by their own volition. That's the equivolent of a stripper deciding she didn't want to take her clothes off any longer.
 

tboy

resident smartass
Aug 18, 2001
15,972
2
0
63
way out in left field
There should be a $500 fine for throwing a cigarette butt on the sidewalk. Ditto for spitting chewing gum on the sidewalk.

What turns me against smokers more than anything else is their lack of regard for anyone else or the immediate environment around them.
and a $10,000.00 fine for throwing litter onto the sidewalk
and a $5,000,000.00 fine for releasing industrial toxins into the air
and a $100,000.00 fine for drinking ANY amount while driving ANY vehicle (even a bicycle)
and a $15,000.00 fine for being intoxicated in public
and a $10,000,000.00 fine for adultery
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,085
1
0
and a $10,000.00 fine for throwing litter onto the sidewalk
and a $5,000,000.00 fine for releasing industrial toxins into the air
and a $100,000.00 fine for drinking ANY amount while driving ANY vehicle (even a bicycle)
and a $15,000.00 fine for being intoxicated in public
and a $10,000,000.00 fine for adultery
Four out of five isn't bad. I'm in.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,030
3,878
113
Of course the common thread through out this is that the smokers here are saying - "Lets learn a bit of tolerance, let some places become smoke friendly" while the other side is pulling excuses out of the air. If as a bar owner I was allowed to declare MY establishment smoke friendly who's rights would I be violating?
As a fair and caring person I wouldn't do it overnight, any employee who wanted to work under those conditions would be allowed and I would happily help my employees who DIDN'T want to work there find jobs in non-smoking environments. Lord knows that I am pretty sure that I would EASILY replace any employees who felt that they couldn't stay in a matter of minutes. Yes, smoking is THAT prevalent in the hospitality industry.
You'd get your ass sued off and you'd lose.

You're the worst kind of prick boss going - Do as I say and your health and safety be damned. I'd LOVE to see you in court. "Your honour - the thousands of studies showing the effects of second hand smoke are wrong. It's their job to go in that smoke filled room, it's only a matter of minutes."

Boom. You'd be finished.
 

Mia.Colpa

Persian Lover
Dec 6, 2005
4,497
0
0
As a fair and caring person I wouldn't do it overnight, any employee who wanted to work under those conditions would be allowed and I would happily help my employees who DIDN'T want to work there find jobs in non-smoking environments.
Is this a joke? You see smoking employers only and non smoking employers? That is so unrealistic and a fantasy.
 

afterhours

New member
Jul 14, 2009
6,322
3
0
You'd get your ass sued off and you'd lose.

You're the worst kind of prick boss going - Do as I say and your health and safety be damned. I'd LOVE to see you in court. "Your honour - the thousands of studies showing the effects of second hand smoke are wrong. It's their job to go in that smoke filled room, it's only a matter of minutes."

Boom. You'd be finished.
but what about a 1000 other dangerous/hazardous occupations? are you allowed to hire people if you are in mining business? how about a chemical plant workers? or security whose job is to stop criminals?

just to clarify, I am happy that the ban is in place, but I fail to see what the rights of workers who are prepared to risk their health ( as do soldiers, SPs and a lot of others everyday) have to do with it
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,011
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and yes, they have the right to leave and find employment elsewhere by their own volition. That's the equivolent of a stripper deciding she didn't want to take her clothes off any longer.
In fact they have a right to a safe work place. It's well recognized now that this means one free of smoke.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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but what about a 1000 other dangerous/hazardous occupations? are you allowed to hire people if you are in mining business? how about a chemical plant workers? or security whose job is to stop criminals?
Chemical plant workers absolutely have a right to refuse to work if they feel their workplace is unsafe. They are provided with protective equipment and training to ensure that their jobs can be done without any undue risk. If they feel there are safety problems they can refuse to work, in which case the MoL will be notified and send in an inspector to check on whether in fact the workplace is safe. Ditto for miners. Ditto for non-police security. Police and military personnel have inherently unsafe jobs, but receive danger pay, extensive training, and are subject to a level of regulation that the restaurant industry is simply not prepared for.

However I can indeed see a way to make bars that allow smoking a safe workplace:

Outfit all employees with oxygen masks, send them on a two week training course to learn how to properly use it, employ a compliance officer who verifies the proper functioning of all safety equipment. This would of course include all the cleaning staff, managers, chefs, line cooks, and anyone else exposed to the hazardous environment. The costs would be steep, but I can't see any reason why that would not be deemed a safe environment. This would be the same way safety issues are dealt with in chemical plants, and I think it would be appropriate.

That said, there are additional reasons to crack down on smoking--namely, it has plainly incented people to quit smoking, and that SHOULD be a policy goal.
 
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