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Why Women lie about being Raped

tboy

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Ok, enough CF, you trying to tell me that all women walk around like they're in PRISON about to be raped at any moment? Continually scared? helpless?

Gimme a fucking break...seriously......

Now if you're trying to say they have to be careful where they go, don't get shit faced drunk in public, stay away from the bad parts of town, and generally be careful? Then that's not just applicable to women, that applies to men too!

Just look at ANY ggw video and I'll show you thousands of women who aren't in fear for their lives or thinking they are about to be raped at any second.........
 

fuji

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The scenario Kyra described and that you deconstructed is not so much an innocent one-off; it is more like systematic bullying.
Maybe read more carefully next time. I was not responding to the systematic bullying part of what she wrote. I was responding to the ass grabbing and pointing out it was not in the same category as rape. While the systematic bullying is much more of a problem, and certainly distressing, honestly it is *still* not in the same category as rape. Yet the statistics given in this thread lump all three of those things together.

I think the person who mentioned the prison scenario (or is that another thread?) is closest to what women feel. Scared. Helpless. Desperate to feel safe and secure.
I doubt that very much. That's a paternalistic view of women that is fundamentally sexist. I think what women feel most of the time is confident, capable, assertive, and in control. Or if not that, some other positive outlook. You make it sound like women are helpless creatures dependent on men for their protection. They're not.

Maybe you were referring to how they would feel in a situation where they are being bullied, specifically, in which case sure it'll be a lot of negative emotions, but I think you would be surprised at just how many women know how to take control of a situation like that and extract themselves from it assertively. There are not so many men who will continue after getting a sharp push and an even sharper retort. Now those rarer situations that go beyond that, which go beyond what tboy was talking about, are plainly into one of those categories we should be discussing on this thread--actual cases of rape or serious sexual assault.

My point above which you are ultimately responding to was such things should not be lumped in with ass grabbing, or guys who back off after being rebuked.
 

Captain Fantastic

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Normally I wouldn't reply to your drivel, but I will make an exception, since you appear to have a complete lack of reading comprehension.

Re-read what I posted. Nowhere did I say "all" women. Nor did I say they all fear being raped.

I likened what some women - which can extend to many, depending on where they grew up, etc. - feel to that of someone who was bullied. There is an overwhelming feeling of powerlessness that goes with being a woman in certain situations. Bigger, stronger men encroach on the space of women, touch them without consent, say lewd things that make them feel uncomfortable, etc. When this happens enough - to them or to their friends, acquaintances, etc. - and there are no reprisals, then women do feel uncomfortable. Like someone who was bullied.

The typical personality of someone who has been bullied is to feel fear/anger when a situation similar to their bullying arises. The same can be said of women who have been subjected to aggressive, unwanted or forced sexual advances. When they face the same situation, they feel fear and/or anger too.

There have been numerous studies of late that have shown this is starting as early as public school, hyperaccelerates through high school and then still occurs in adulthood. Men grope, grab, make inappropriate comments and generally make women uncomfortable. The women try to "laugh off" these advances and encroachments to avoid ostracization, but when asked later tell a much different story: they were scared, they felt powerless (particularly because the powers-that-be do nothing to stop it) and they didn't want to be further subjected to shunning or other forms of bullying. When this happens enough, it becomes engrained in the women's psyche and can carry over into adulthood. Just like any other victim of bullying.

Only recently have women started to take back their sexuality on a larger scale and become more "in control." However that has led to an escalation in men's behaviour - a sexual arms race of sorts.

BTW, using GGW (Girls Gone Wild, I assume) as your point of reference shows exactly the kind of puerile small-mindedness that makes you the "unempathetic" borderline misogynist that you are.
 

tboy

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I think the person who mentioned the prison scenario (or is that another thread?) is closest to what women feel. Scared. Helpless. Desperate to feel safe and secure.

In that paragraph NO WHERE do you state "many" anything, you specifically say "women" indicating ALL women and your obvious pandering and twisting of everything to be so anti men indicates to me that you have a bias towards anything female. AKA the white knight syndrome.......

As for you "not saying rape", dude, please....

knowing that there are big, bad-ass convicts who if they want to, can and will forcibly rape and degrade you -
What are you drinking? I think you should stop before you misquote yourself any more.....

As for GGW, it is an obvious and well documented series of videos depicting (as you stated) women in constant fear of being raped.......

Now go play in your sandbox mr Knight and let the adults talk..........
 

Captain Fantastic

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Maybe read more carefully next time. I was not responding to the systematic bullying part of what she wrote. I was responding to the ass grabbing and pointing out it was not in the same category as rape. While the systematic bullying is much more of a problem, and certainly distressing, honestly it is *still* not in the same category as rape. Yet the statistics given in this thread lump all three of those things together.

I doubt that very much. That's a paternalistic view of women that is fundamentally sexist. I think what women feel most of the time is confident, capable, assertive, and in control. Or if not that, some other positive outlook. You make it sound like women are helpless creatures dependent on men for their protection. They're not.

Maybe you were referring to how they would feel in a situation where they are being bullied, specifically, in which case sure it'll be a lot of negative emotions, but I think you would be surprised at just how many women know how to take control of a situation like that and extract themselves from it assertively. There are not so many men who will continue after getting a sharp push and an even sharper retort. Now those rarer situations that go beyond that, which go beyond what tboy was talking about, are plainly into one of those categories we should be discussing on this thread--actual cases of rape or serious sexual assault.

My point above which you are ultimately responding to was such things should not be lumped in with ass grabbing, or guys who back off after being rebuked.
I agree with what you're saying in general. My point simply was an ass grab is not always "just" an ass grab. And it is not something to be sloughed off lightly. While an ass grab or a push wouldn't bother you or me, I wouldn't presume that it doesn't bother others to a much greater degree.

I will also suggest that not all women are assertive, confident, and so on -- that is often a learned behaviour, just like those who were shy learn to come out of their shell, etc. It also becomes a defence mechanism and a "survival" technique. My point was simply that their past shapes who they are. That can include upbringing as well as learned experiences. Nature and nurture. Some people cope better than others, but they all remember where they came from.

My prison example was an intentional extreme. It has been used by female friends when they feel totally uncomfortable -- mostly because like others, I don't care if gay guys or unattractive (to me) women hit on me and I've let that be known to everyone. Not saying it's a rational fear, but it is very real in many women, even if they don't express or admit it. I'm certainly not going to diminish that.
 

tboy

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...My point simply was an ass grab is not always "just" an ass grab.
and often it is just that....

As Freud pointed out: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar........

That's a paternalistic view of women that is fundamentally sexist
SOrry fuji, I missed this part of your post. Thank you for summing up EXACTLY what CF is. I couldn't put my finger on it until just now. He calls me a misogynist and I couldn't figure out what the exact opposite was.

I think he's stuck in the '50s where women are defenseless little kittens in frilly dresses stuck in the kitchen.....

Men grope, grab, make inappropriate comments and generally make women uncomfortable.
and so do women. Have you NEVER heard a grope of ladies out for ladies night? Jesus. Have you NEVER been to a Male strip club? Jesus, they're worse than we are.

Now let's get back to the topic at hand:

Women who falsely accuse men of rape......
 

Captain Fantastic

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Hmm, let me see:

The scenario Kyra described and that you deconstructed is not so much an innocent one-off; it is more like systematic bullying. Unfortunately (for what it means regarding some men) this is not isolated or rare and it is a very real fear for many women. There are still a lot of men who believe that they can force themselves on a woman - crowd their space, touch them without invitation, make them feel uncomfortable - and that it's all right - or even their right - to do so. This happens enough that it is a real fear and becomes engrained in many women's psyche. Or sometimes it just manifests itself into a severe dislike and mistrust of men.
Used "many women." Check.
I think the person who mentioned the prison scenario (or is that another thread?) is closest to what women feel. Scared. Helpless. Desperate to feel safe and secure. Try and imagine what it would be like going to prison and knowing that there are big, bad-ass convicts who if they want to, can and will forcibly rape and degrade you - either alone or in a group. That is much closer to what women feel when they their space is encroached upon, when they're touched without consent or when they feel physically threatened - whatever that means to them.
Did not mention that women feared rape. (Used an analogy for what women's fears were like, i.e., powerlessness.) Check.

Back to reading comprehension class for you.


I gave one possible reason/scenario that has been given to me on numerous occasions and has been backed up by research, yet is contrary to your opinion. I didn't claim it to be infallible - just as another potential reason why ass-grabbing is not kosher. Something else to mull over. I didn't say that you were wrong or stupid. Yet the first thing you do is make your childish response an ad hominen attack.


It's too bad you become so entrenched in your viewpoints and refuse to see beyond your small, pathetic world. You might be fun to have a conversation with otherwise... As it is, your lack of empathy and inability to accept any opinion (let alone facts) other than your own makes you a waste of bandwidth. And oxygen.
 

tboy

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can and will forcibly rape and degrade you - either alone or in a group. That is much closer to what women feel when they their space is encroached upon,
Looks like you DID say that women fear being raped, or are that they don't fear being raped, just feel like they're afraid of being raped? Amounts to the same thing.

I read just fine TYVM.

And for the record, I have and do accept that other's have differing opinions of mine, makes life interesting. But what I DON'T accept is people who contradict themselves or take such a biased slant that they cannot see the forest for the trees.

The thing is, you and gen and your little "group" look at me as being misogynistic, where if you knew me, you'd realize that I am anything but. Why I come off this way is because I DO not PANDER to women and or their opinions. I treat them the same way as I treat men, with respect, dignity and value their opinions. Just because I don't agree, doesn't make mine, or theirs, any more or less valuable.

So, continue to call me misogynist and I'll call you a pandering white Knight.

Carry on.....

Oh, and state all the studies you want to, as stated earlier in this thread: if you gather a group of women together who all have been assaulted in some manner, your results will be skewed. I have met thousands of women in my life and some have been sexually assaulted. Sure, some who have experienced this horrible act DO act the way you say, basically afraid of their own shadow, but by the same token, men who have gone through physical assaults do exhibit the same characteristics.

I also have met women who, if some guy touched them who they didn't want to, would wind up and deck them without a second thought. I have also met women who attract and encourage this sort of attention. It's about equal across the board. (I've met some ROUGH women let me tell you lol). I've also met my share of frou frou women who panic when they break a nail and are afraid of their own shadow (simply because that's the way they were raised, sheltered and coddled).

I can emphasize with these women and feel sorry for what they have experienced. But by the same token I won't be as sorry for women who have done things that have contributed to the attack. IE: the women who get hammered, hook up with a complete stranger in a bar, take him back to her place. Sorry, but blame is to be laid. Now I will totally support and emphasize with someone who takes the usual precautions that everyone should take (men AND women). Don't wander around looking like a victim in a bad neighbourhood. Don't be wandering down dark alleys at 3 am, etc etc. Just like that story a couple of months ago where a woman came home at 3 am and decided to take the stairs to her, (4th? 3rd?) floor apartment and was attached in the stairway. That was just dumb. Heck I'M cautious about taking the stairs at 2 am and I'm on the second floor!!!!!!
 

WhaWhaWha

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Aug 17, 2001
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Between a rock and a hard place
Sadly, this women will learn from her fellow inmates what a real rape experience is like.
 

Whosyodaddy

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From personal experience, I'd have to say that in an alleged assault against someone of the opposite sex, the accused is treated as guilty until proven innocent. Last year, I was in the Brampton courthouse, as a witness for a case. I took the opportunity to sit and watch the wheels of our justice system grind slowly on. There was a " Domestic Assault" case being heard. The father and the mother, or, if you prefer, husband and wife, had been having a heated argument in the kitchen of their home. The husband raised his left hand over his right shoulder, and then thought better of it and walked away. Their children, aged nine and eleven, saw him raise his hand, ran to their room and called 911. The police attended and removed him from his home, despite the protestations of his wife to the contrary. She refused to press charges, but the police laid them anyway. Their reasoning? The "threatening gesture" constituted assault. The judge was perplexed as to what to do. He couldn't dismiss the charges as the husband readily admitted that he had raised his hand, and by legal definition, that gesture constituted assault. The judge heard from the husband's lawyer that the couple were devout worshippers at their Mosque and had been receiving counseling from their church. The Judge stated that he was concerned that anything he did, as far as sentencing was concerned, could severely impact the family, as the husband was required to travel to the U.S. for his employment, and a conviction that would result in his inadmissability to the U.S. could foreseeably result in the unemployment of the family's sole income. The judge actually said that it was the most unassault assault that had ever been brought before him. Eventually, after discussing it with the Crown, he found a charge that would not result in a record that would impede the husband's employment. The final sentence? $100.00 and some community service. All for what Ralf Kramdon did every Saturday night when he said " to the moon, Alice, to the moon" and the nation laughed. ( obscure vintage T.V. reference from Jackie Gleason's " The Honeymooners")

I also have had the personal experience of being accused of rape. Twenty five years ago, at a bar I was working at, one of the guys I worked with came to me at the end of the night and said he needed a wingman. He had a girl that was hot to trot, but needed someone to cover her friend. I had no plans, so I said sure, why not. We sll hopped in my car after the bar closed and went to a local park. The other guy buggered off with his chick into the bushes and I sat there shhooting the shit with her friend. We got along fine, but the vibe that it wasn't going anywhere was obvious and we both knew that we were just killing time while her friend got her freak on. About forty-five minutes later, they showed up looking disheveled and happy. We took them back to the the bar and dropped them off at their car. I went to an after hours house party and didn't think anything of it. That is until I rolled home the following afternoon. My answering machine had about twenty messages, all the same... call work NOW!! It would seem that the girl my buddy was with had called home and her fiance was freaking out. She had called the police and conncocted a rape story to explain her being missing until five in the morning. She had also gotten her friend, the one I sat there and casually shot the shit with, in on it. I went to work immediately and was met by detectives and uniformed officers. I told them what happened, and my story fit with the story of the guy I worked with as to what had occured the night before. After an hour or so of questioning, I was asked if I was willing to remove my shirt, as the girl my buddy was with had said that we both raped her and that she had fought back and marked me. I said sure and removed my shirt... Not a mark on me, of course. I was asked to " go sit over there " , which I did. About a half an hour later, I was told that I was free to go.. One of them, I wasn't told which one, had cracked and told the truth about what had happened. I don't know if either of them were charged or not from that, I never persued it as I was never charged or inconvienienced after that. But I do know that the onus wasn't on anyone to prove I did it, the onus was on me to prove I didn't. I could just as easily have gone to jail until trial. If the two of them would've conncocted a bullet proof story..... If I would have gone home instead of showing up the next afternoon, I would have been charged and stayed in until....

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be taken seriously when they make an allegation of sexual assault or abuse, but what I experienced was the receiving end of a false accusation. If I were to say you broke into my house and stole my property, I'd need video or fingerprints or other damning evidence to have a charge pressed. This is not the case with assault involving a member of the opposite sex. It's a given that if the woman you live with scratches her face with her own fingernails calls 911 and says you did it, your bed that night will have a concrete pillow and your wrists will have nice ring marks on them for a few days. You also won't be allowed in your own home, except to pick up personal belongings with a police witness, until it goes to court.

After that experience, i won't have sex with a chick that's been drinking unless I've had sex with her when she was sober...
 

tboy

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i won't have sex with a chick that's been drinking unless I've had sex with her when she was sober...
That's got to be one of the wisest things ever posted on terb. Kudos to you my friend, KUDOS.

In fact, that should be made into a sticker and placed along the top of every mirror in every bar in Toronto...........
 

VirginJohn

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Dec 1, 2005
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TBoy, have you ever tried to reverse the role and imagine how you would feel to have these men touching you uninvited? Are you capable of truly understanding what that might feel like if the situation were as you describe it?
I don't think most men would care if another woman touched them uninvited on the butt. So, using a "same sex" arguement is stupid since we are talking about hetro-sex behaviour and charges. I doubt that female on female touching and rape have any statistical bearing on this discussion.
 

Captain Fantastic

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I can emphasize with these women and feel sorry for what they have experienced. But by the same token I won't be as sorry for women who have done things that have contributed to the attack. IE: the women who get hammered, hook up with a complete stranger in a bar, take him back to her place. Sorry, but blame is to be laid. Now I will totally support and emphasize with someone who takes the usual precautions that everyone should take (men AND women). Don't wander around looking like a victim in a bad neighbourhood. Don't be wandering down dark alleys at 3 am, etc etc. Just like that story a couple of months ago where a woman came home at 3 am and decided to take the stairs to her, (4th? 3rd?) floor apartment and was attached in the stairway. That was just dumb.
You're either incredibly naive or completely insensitive.

So getting drunk means it's a woman's fault if she gets raped? Taking the stairs means she's fair game? Extreme, but your statement essentially blames the victim.

According to your logic women must basically be bubble-wrapped - never go out alone, don't drink/hook up, never walk anywhere, etc. And I'm allegedly paternalistic? That is akin to countries where women are forced to wear veils (and more) for their own good. Where women are charged when they're immodestly dressed or assaulted.

The quote above shows exactly why many women feel fear. They can't trust men after a few drinks, they're not safe in their own buildings, etc. It is part of a greater culture of fear. My point is, was and will be until I'm proven wrong is that with women, that fear can and does extend beyond 'simple' assault to sexual assault/rape.
tboy said:
Heck I'M cautious about taking the stairs at 2 am and I'm on the second floor!!!!!!
One that you apparently buy into.

I don't worry about getting drunk and going home with someone. I don't fear walking in any neighbourhood in Toronto at any time of day. I'm certainly not afraid to take the stairs in my own building. And I don't even think about being sexually assaulted.

I think that feeling of relative security is all people ask for - to live in a society where they don't have to be afraid. With many women, there is an inherent sexual side to that feeling of safety that just doesn't exist with men. (Hence my unwieldy prison analogy - one of the few places where men actually do fear sexual assault.)
 

tboy

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in your typical slant, you have already decided what whatever I post means and don't even take the time to actually read it.

So getting drunk means it's a woman's fault if she gets raped? Taking the stairs means she's fair game? Extreme, but your statement essentially blames the victim.
No, it is not 100% her fault and no she isn't 100% to blame and simply getting drunk doesn't mean it's her fault. But getting drunk in the wrong part of town, in the wrong bar, with the wrong people, with strangers? Yes, she IS partially to blame. No, simply taking the stairs does not mean "she's fair game" but taking the stairs at 2 am in a not so nice building DOES put some of the responsibility for anything that should happen on her shoulders.

Yes, a woman should be able to walk anywhere, do anything, and act any way she pleases without fear of harm. But this doesn't just apply to WOMEN. EVERYONE should take precautions and avoid activities or situations that would put them in jeopardy. If you'd take off your white Knight helmet for just ONE second you'd see that.

Yes, if a woman gets drunk, and goes wandering the streets alone, if something happens to her? YES it is partially her fault that it happened. Just like if YOU stick your hand in the lions cage at the metro zoo, YOU are partially to blame if you get bitten. Just like if a GUY gets drunk and wanders around the streets alone at night and gets mugged? YES he is partially to blame.

I think that feeling of relative security is all people ask for - to live in a society where they don't have to be afraid.
Then move to the sticks because it ain't gonna happen in toronto. Not in YOUR or MY lifetime. Obviously you've never been the victim of a mugging or assault in this city else you wouldn't be saying that. I am not afraid per se of walking down any street in this city but I most CERTAINLY avoid certain areas.

As I said earlier: EVERYONE has to take precautions in life. What they do, where they go, who they exchange personal information with.

Yes, I AM saying that women shouldn't go wandering around the streets at night alone. They should be able to, and in some areas they can and be perfectedly safe. But in other areas? No fucking way.

I think you forget the ads run by the city and Metro Police when Paul Bernardo was running around? I guess you forget the ads on the buses, the radio, TV. And for that matter, I guess you forget that the TTC even has a policy that allows buses to stop wherever a woman wants after dark. Ever wonder why that is? Guess not.......

I tell you what Mr Knight. I have some free time tonight after the women's hockey game. Meet me at the corner of Jane and finch. I'll show you a route to walk and let's see if you make it out the other side without being the least bit nervous.......

In case you don't know it (and you call ME naive?) there are elements in this city that would LOVE to have what you have. If you're alone and come across them? Unless you're superman (and I do believe you think you are) they WILL take them from you.

Anyhow, prattle on about how women should walk anywhere they want whenever they want. Me? I'll advocate common sense and tell them NOT to and they can take my advice and NEVER encounter assualt, sexual assault, or rape. Take your advice? It will only be a matter of time before they do.
 
I don't think most men would care if another woman touched them uninvited on the butt. So, using a "same sex" arguement is stupid since we are talking about hetro-sex behaviour and charges. I doubt that female on female touching and rape have any statistical bearing on this discussion.
Lets leave the insults out of it, if you want further clarity on my point just ask I'm happy to provide it but calling my arguement stupid doesn't further a conversation.

The reason I used a male scenario is because very few males are physically intimidated by other females. I figured as a group we could understand that unwanted touch is unwanted touch, I don't care if it's a male or female touching me when it's unwanted attention and I did not consent to it then the gender of the other person involved doesn't matter.

A part of the reason that most men don't care if a woman touches them is because they don't feel any further physical threat or risk, most women are incapable of escalating the situation should she wish to. There is very little implied or percieved threat and because of that the situation is deemed to be harmless by the male involved.
That isn't true when the balance of power changes, I thought it would be easier to place yourself in the situation and feel empathy for the female role when a male is doing the touching, where your reaction to the situation may have consequences. When you are touched by another male you have choices to make, you can laugh it off and do nothing at all but that does open you up to further advances, you could turn to him and say "thanks but no thanks" which one hopes is a safe response but you have to make a quick judgement on who the guy is to gauge what his reaction will be (was he drinking, did his friends egg him on thus he might react badly, etc.) or you can turn in anger and tell him to keep his hands to himself, basically posturing up to show you are the 'strong' one. Each situation has a different outcome and it varies depending on who you deal with, sometimes it works to turn in anger as the person is genuinely sorry or will be intimidated and back off, often the genuine approach of "not interested" works but sometimes you'll find that a public rebuff will get you an angry reaction and sometimes doing nothing works well but you may also be giving off the wrong signal. Any reaction can escalate the situation and as you are now the smaller of the group your goal is to not end up in a potentially uncomfortable or violent situation but you also don't want to continue to be touched by this man.
That is why I pose the question of what do you do when a man touches you? It has nothing to do with ones gender but adjusting the power dynamic. A girl that is 5'3" and weighs about 120lbs rarely feels like she can get into a physical altercation with a male just as most men at 5'8" are not likely picking fights with guys the size of Lennox Lewis. I would assume if Lennox wanted your ass you'd probably think twice before you told him where to go and that is the process many women have to go through each time someone touches them uninvited.

Now where is that group for those of us that should just walk away from a thread? I am off to find something a little more productive to do with my time like drinking a martini and watching paint dry. :rolleyes:
 

poker

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Kyra... your points were crystal clear, and these guys got it. Its just easier for them to to dismiss what you're saying.

Cheers!
 

Viggo Rasmussen

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Now where is that group for those of us that should just walk away from a thread? I am off to find something a little more productive to do with my time like drinking a martini and watching paint dry. :rolleyes:
Good idea for many of us on different threads, gotta let go sometimes.

We all agree it's wrong to cry rape and there's also a problem with women being raped or assaulted or just feeling unsafe.
 
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