The rules of street fighting

[tarkovsky]

Thank you to everyone who replied to my thread about "being charged". This is what I've gathered from your replies. I'm merely trying to gather the knowledge any citizen needs and should know to protect his/ her own self and loved ones. As everyone knows, knowledge is power.

0. You can be charged for punching someone even if pushed to by vocal abuse or non-physical provocation.

1. You can vocally abuse someone as much as you want and if they punch you, you can have them arrested.

2. You can't be charged for pushing someone.

3. You can throw a punch if the other party throws first. [the corollary of that is you can beat a person only to the point of subdueing him and anything more, you will be charged.]

4. You can punch a person if you're trying to keep him in place for the police and he tries to flee. [It's illegal to tie him up like the Chinese store owner who got arrested for tying up a robber]

5. You can't be charged if the police are not called.

The following are the ones I'm not sure and can someone please verify or discount?

* You can't be charged if the other party doesn't officially tell the police to charge you? [what about Rihanna; the police claimed they would have charged Chris Brown whether or not Rhianna charged him].

* You can't be charged if there are no witnesses or video evidence. [but what if there is physical evidence like bruises, a black eye, broken bones?]

 

[Sexy_Dave]

Thank you to everyone who replied to my thread about "being charged". This is what I've gathered from your replies. I'm merely trying to gather the knowledge any citizen needs and should know to protect his/ her own self and loved ones. As everyone knows, knowledge is power.

0. You can be charged for punching someone even if pushed to by vocal abuse or non-physical provocation.

1. You can vocally abuse someone as much as you want and if they punch you, you can have them arrested.

2. You can't be charged for pushing someone.

3. You can throw a punch if the other party throws first. [the corollary of that is you can beat a person only to the point of subdueing him and anything more, you will be charged.]

4. You can punch a person if you're trying to keep him in place for the police and he tries to flee. [It's illegal to tie him up like the Chinese store owner who got arrested for tying up a robber]

5. You can't be charged if the police are not called.

The following are the ones I'm not sure and can someone please verify or discount?

* You can't be charged if the other party doesn't officially tell the police to charge you? [what about Rihanna; the police claimed they would have charged Chris Brown whether or not Rhianna charged him].

* You can't be charged if there are no witnesses or video evidence. [but what if there is physical evidence like bruises, a black eye, broken bones?]

There are a number of things wrong here...

You can an indeed be charged/arrested for pushing someone. In fact you can be arrested for assault by merely standing in someones way and impeding their progress.

You can be charged if the police arent called. You dont need to call the police to lay the charge. You go to the court house and swear out a complaint, The crown has a look at your claims and THEY decide whether to issue an arrest warrant.

Absence of evidence is not an argument for evidence of absence. Therefore you need only make a claim, statement to the police/crown.

For #4 you best be careful to be sure you are using reasoned and requisite force.

Finally, there are no rules in a "street fight".

 

[Anynym]

You seem to be trying to find a formula to avoid charges.

There is none.

You can always be charged: all you're doing is managing probabilities of charges being laid, and of those charges leading to a successful conviction.

But nothing can be predicted entirely: you can be provoked, throw one punch that doesn't land, and still be convicted of manslaughter if in avoiding your punch the other person falls, hits his head, and dies.

 

[Rockslinger]

Wasn't Eric Landros charged, cuffed and paraded in front of the cameras because a woman lied about him tossing a drink at her?

 

[smylee52]

.

There are no rules in street fighting . The rules of self defence revolve around your belief that you are in imminent danger of being harmed physically . If you can't convince a third party that you were 100% certain you were going to be attacked and receive physical harm than keep your hands in your pockets .

If you are feeling threatened and perceive an imminent attack then let the instigator know you are in fear of being harmed and should the attack be launched at you only use sufficient force to insure your attacker is unable to mount a second attack .

.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Why did you start counting at zero? Just curious.

 

[red]

Canada's Criminal Code (¶265) captures both the traditional concept of an assault and that of a battery:

"A person commits an assault when without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly; he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs."

 

[gaze]

I think it is stupid that people can't dish out their own justice. Then you end up with people that think they can say insulting things and you can't do anything but ignore them. To me, if the person is a dick and they seem like they want to trade some punches, anything goes.

Then again you may have people with a retarded sense of justice.

 

[tarkovsky]

Wasn't Eric Landros charged, cuffed and paraded in front of the cameras because a woman lied about him tossing a drink at her?

From what I understand it's legal to throw water at someone but if there's alcohol in the glass, you can be charged.

Capital Guy: I actually started counting at one but then I wanted to put the first rule first, thus at zero.

I guess from everyone's comments there's no real hard and fast rules; it's all up to the judge once it gets to court. The problem is, you've probably already been charged or arrested.

I'm not looking for ways to beat someone senseless without getting charged. I just want to know what the laws are to protect myself and loved ones. I mentioned my gf's butt getting grabbed but she didn't tell me about it until later. If she had told me at the time, I probably would've pommeled the guy. Call me "uncivilized" but I think that would have been the correct response. I want to understand how the law could've worked in my favour and not against me (as it appears it is). I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

 

[torontojohn]

I believe the courts will accept self-defense and reasonable force as a legal defense if you end up injuring someone in a fight.

Don't start shit, and don't cause unnecessary damage if someone else starts it and you're fighting back.

There's only one practical rule for street fighting - win, and winning includes successfully fleeing.

 

[torontojohn]

I mentioned my gf's butt getting grabbed but she didn't tell me about it until later. If she had told me at the time, I probably would've pommeled the guy. Call me "uncivilized" but I think that would have been the correct response. I want to understand how the law could've worked in my favour and not against me (as it appears it is). I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

The butt grab is a form of assault, which is probably chargeable, but more likely the cops would just ask why you didn't have the venue security throw the idiot out.

Telling the guy off is fine, though you take a risk of escalating to a fight. Striking him is going to get you charged, and probably convicted.

I think the only way to assault the guy without getting convicted would be to knock his hand away while he's in the act, and have it escalate into a fight immediately. You're still going to need a lawyer.

 

[Rockslinger]

The butt grab is a form of assault, which is probably chargeable,

Gen said that a 14 year old boy grabbed her butt on the subway.

 

[spankingman]

Man I think you have some SERIOUS ISSUES you better have therapy for. Being a MACHO MAN these days is going to get you in some SERIOUS trouble.

Lighten up!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cobra Enorme]

2. You can't be charged for pushing someone.

3. You can throw a punch if the other party throws first. [the corollary of that is you can beat a person only to the point of subdueing him and anything more, you will be charged.]

4. You can punch a person if you're trying to keep him in place for the police and he tries to flee. [It's illegal to tie him up like the Chinese store owner who got arrested for tying up a robber]

5. You can't be charged if the police are not called.

wrong
wrong
and
wrong.

dont want to go to jail, dont do anything, go home with your hands in your pocket. if you touch anyone, you can be charged. Even if they start it.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Capital Guy: I actually started counting at one but then I wanted to put the first rule first, thus at zero.

I wasn't being snarky. Just curious why the first rule is numbered "0". Its not a typical North American style of presenting a list. From your nickname, there is a chance you are from an Eastern culture. If so, is it in your tradition to start a list with "0"?. That was what sparked my curiosity. If it just a function of a later editing of the list, understood, in which case its not a Russian thing, and my minor interest in the quirk, is gone.

 

[islandman4567]

Everyone is so tough, until it is some 6'8 300 pound 5% bodyfat Hells Angels with his patched jacket covering a Tshirt indicating membership in the hardest core MMA school in the region, then it is all yes sir, no sir, would you like me to bring my sister over and have you grab her ass also sir.
OTOH if it is some ass in a wheelchair just begging for a beating, then let loose the gerbils of war!

I think there should be a " he got what he was asking for law".
from reading this thread , I think some people think it would be ok to provoke someone like you just described, and then hide behind the law if the guy slapped you so hard your mother felt it.

I believe if you pick a fight with someone you should be willing to take your lumps.

If someone attacks you , unprovoked , and he gets his ass handed to him "he got what he was asking for"

brings to mind the other thread a little while ago where the guy was threatening another guy (the one with the video), and then got punched out , and then turns around and wants to sue. If I was a judge , and this case was in front of me he'd get laughed out of the courtroom.

 

[wet_suit_one]

Here's a suggestion for the OP. If you really want to know what the law is, why don't you consult a lawyer (criminal in this case) for an hour?

Just a suggestion. Nothing like talking to the experts to get the right info.

Too ridiculous a suggestion?

 

[fuji]

2. You can't be charged for pushing someone.

Yes you can. It's assault.

[It's illegal to tie him up like the Chinese store owner who got arrested for tying up a robber]

No it's not, if you have someone under a lawful citizens arrest and they are trying to flee you can tie them up and wait for police.

The Chinese store owner took someone down where he had no lawful cause for a citizens arrest: You have to SEE the crime with your own eyes. Not do your own detective work and arrest someone based on "video evidence".

5. You can't be charged if the police are not called.

Not true. Not likely, but not true. Crown can bring charges against you later if there's sufficient evidence.

* You can't be charged if the other party doesn't officially tell the police to charge you? [what about Rihanna; the police claimed they would have charged Chris Brown whether or not Rhianna charged him].

Nope, Crown just need a witness. The other person may be a key witness, but that is all they are.

* You can't be charged if there are no witnesses or video evidence. [but what if there is physical evidence like bruises, a black eye, broken bones?]

There has to be some evidence that you assaulted someone obviously!

 

[Moraff]

I think there should be a " he got what he was asking for law".

I hear ya and to a certain degree agree with you. However there's a bunch of laws that need changing before that can happen.

 

[tarkovsky]

Canada's Criminal Code (¶265) captures both the traditional concept of an assault and that of a battery:

"A person commits an assault when without the consent of another person, he applies force intentionally to that other person, directly or indirectly; he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose; or while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, he accosts or impedes another person or begs."

So, according to the Criminal Code, you don't even have to touch someone to be charged. If you pretend you're going to hit someone or even step in their way, legally you can be charged. Obviously, this is ridiculous and it's a way for the courts to be in charge of any conflict, while leaving the participants in complete darkness over what will happen to them.

I remember the story of the asian high school student who got arrested even though a white kid who called him a racial slur threw the first punch. It's all up to the judge, there is nothing protecting you in the law.

Americans have the right to have guns but Canadians don't even have the right to their own fists. What cop would arrest someone if I told him that the accused merely stood in front of me?! So, the answer is no, Canadians can not protect ourselves our the honour of our women.