While it's true the oma would likely resist increasing admissions to the point of oversupply (where earnings would decrease) it is currently, and has been for at least the last 15 years, tv provincial government limiting physician supply. Doctors cost the govt money, and basically they prefer to have less around- even if that means no family doc for some, or major waits to see specialists, get important surgeries etc.
I negotiated with my MD
- Thread starter Big Rig
- Start date
Your idea sounds quite solid to me and needs to be explored but by who ?
According to you the Medical establishment is a business out to protect their turf so they cannot be allowed to examine such ideas, besides they created the system that you feel is exploitative.
Politicians are incapable of not being influenced by same
No one left to make changes !!!!!!!!!!!!
According to you the Medical establishment is a business out to protect their turf so they cannot be allowed to examine such ideas, besides they created the system that you feel is exploitative.
Politicians are incapable of not being influenced by same
No one left to make changes !!!!!!!!!!!!
Sure I am the same way. You get your idea off the ground and I'll be the forst to admit I was wrong.
Ah, build some new buildings, hire some new profs.
They keep yapping about all this "infra structure money" which is utter bullshit, then build a few new buildings for U of T, McMaster, Queens and Western to house some more med school classrooms. York has been trying to open a med school for decades but the province won't let them. Why not?
But they won't do it because the truth is that it's all about the status quo and there is no infrastructure program.
Doctors are greedy assholes(not all)
I generally agree with the criticisms of surgeons/mds --i've been to five consultations with different surgeons for an elective procedure and each one has suggested something different to fix the problem --the guy who was a specialist in X said that I needed X while the guy who was a specialist in something else said that X was completely unnecessary for me and that it would in fact worsen the problem and that I should do Y(his specialty).
The experience made me realize these guys are not into actually addressing what is right for me, but getting me to undergo and charge me for their procedure. Always do plenty of research and do not blindly follow anyone doctor unless he has totally proven himself to be trustworthy. Always be weary of the money angle. I have lived for long stretches in the states and this is where you see a big difference in the quality of healthcare vs. canada --in the us doctors ensure a very high degree of service because they are competing for your business.
Also, there needs to be some kind of morality/psychological evaluation of medical degree candidates --most are simply motivated by the prospect of a career where they are guaranteed to make a certain amount of money --there seems to be little emphasis placed on people who are genuinely motivated to take care of people and improve the health of the population.
I generally agree with the criticisms of surgeons/mds --i've been to five consultations with different surgeons for an elective procedure and each one has suggested something different to fix the problem --the guy who was a specialist in X said that I needed X while the guy who was a specialist in something else said that X was completely unnecessary for me and that it would in fact worsen the problem and that I should do Y(his specialty).
The experience made me realize these guys are not into actually addressing what is right for me, but getting me to undergo and charge me for their procedure. Always do plenty of research and do not blindly follow anyone doctor unless he has totally proven himself to be trustworthy. Always be weary of the money angle. I have lived for long stretches in the states and this is where you see a big difference in the quality of healthcare vs. canada --in the us doctors ensure a very high degree of service because they are competing for your business.
Also, there needs to be some kind of morality/psychological evaluation of medical degree candidates --most are simply motivated by the prospect of a career where they are guaranteed to make a certain amount of money --there seems to be little emphasis placed on people who are genuinely motivated to take care of people and improve the health of the population.
Everbody knows the U.S. has the best health-care service for anyone who has the money (or insurance plan) to pay for it. This is notably the case for any specialty health-care. Unfortunately, the majority of Amercians never get to experience that top-notch service, when they need it. I don't think that is the model we should be following if we believe every citizen should be entitled to health-care.
I think this is a relatively recent phenomenom, especially as the medical career as become more financially lucrative. The so-called "A-type personalities" are always driven to where they money is. Over the last decade, most prospects looking to enter the medical field engage in what is known as "resume-building" for medical school. Throughout their high-school and undergraduate years, they make sure to get top grades in all the relevent courses, and also participate in as many endevours as possible that would look good on an application to Medical school. Therefore you get all these students "volunteering" for all sorts of causes for the sake of volunteering, not because they genuinely believe in the cause, or even genuinely want to help, but because they know it will impress the person looking over their application to Med-School. And they learn how to say all the right things in their interview process for Med-school.
I think I have Hangman
Terbites are agreeing with me now
The MD profession is a monopoly that needs to be broken
This is esp true with simple cosmetic procedures where they are allowed to charge their own prices
They have a monopoly and over charge $$$$$ thousands $$$$$ per hour for procedures that could be done by qualified non Md's
you may be right (and probably are) wrt the cosmetic/elective stuff, but i think its too much to lump the whole medical profession in that category.
some stuff you WANT done by a highly trained and skilled physician.
I checked around and the price was similar to others
But it is hard to decide for some charge by plug, or actually amount of follicles transplanted ( the nurses count them as they separate them) , and some per procedure
Negotiate for cosmetic procedures ! if business is down they will gladly negotiate as they way overcharge in the first place
When you go in you will be met by a professional salesman in a Doctor's get up and he will proceed to assess a medical condition which is ill -fucking- legal for him to do ! then bomb you with a sales pitch in a freaking doctor's office !
I agree
Each procedure should stand on its own merits
Annuals, for example, may be best done by a layman trained in that area. You would now have a specialist doing a check up so his knowledge should be greater and more up to date and it would be cheaper !
Doctors are to busy to know everything
I appreciate both sides of this argument, as I recently had a surgical procedure done a few month back. I went for several consultations with different doctors, and ultimately decided to pay the extra money to make sure it was done by someone qualified, in a Canadian hospital.
I know many people who go overseas for their various surgeries. Most of the time, the cost is significantly lower, and the results are generally comparable to what you might get here. I could have saved about $2000 to get my surgery done in Mexico, and the results probably would have been about the same. But I've seen a few people with results that are downright frightening, and I also knew someone who died on the operating table... she just never woke up from the anaesthetic.
My main point is, Canadian doctors don't have a complete monopoly over surgical procedures, because you can always go elsewhere to get things done. Surgery is about 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost in Latin America, and you can always go there for your procedure... but do you really want to take that risk? If everything goes well, fantastic - but if something goes wrong, wouldn't you rather be in a Canadian hospital, instead of a foreign clinic?
Good on you for driving down your doctor's price, and since I don't think that hair plugs qualify as "invasive surgery" you probably could have done it for even less in another country. But some things are too important to go bargain-hunting - because, like all things in life, you tend to get what you pay for...
I know many people who go overseas for their various surgeries. Most of the time, the cost is significantly lower, and the results are generally comparable to what you might get here. I could have saved about $2000 to get my surgery done in Mexico, and the results probably would have been about the same. But I've seen a few people with results that are downright frightening, and I also knew someone who died on the operating table... she just never woke up from the anaesthetic.
My main point is, Canadian doctors don't have a complete monopoly over surgical procedures, because you can always go elsewhere to get things done. Surgery is about 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost in Latin America, and you can always go there for your procedure... but do you really want to take that risk? If everything goes well, fantastic - but if something goes wrong, wouldn't you rather be in a Canadian hospital, instead of a foreign clinic?
Good on you for driving down your doctor's price, and since I don't think that hair plugs qualify as "invasive surgery" you probably could have done it for even less in another country. But some things are too important to go bargain-hunting - because, like all things in life, you tend to get what you pay for...
Agree with everything you have saidI appreciate both sides of this argument, as I recently had a surgical procedure done a few month back. I went for several consultations with different doctors, and ultimately decided to pay the extra money to make sure it was done by someone qualified, in a Canadian hospital.
I know many people who go overseas for their various surgeries. Most of the time, the cost is significantly lower, and the results are generally comparable to what you might get here. I could have saved about $2000 to get my surgery done in Mexico, and the results probably would have been about the same. But I've seen a few people with results that are downright frightening, and I also knew someone who died on the operating table... she just never woke up from the anaesthetic.
My main point is, Canadian doctors don't have a complete monopoly over surgical procedures, because you can always go elsewhere to get things done. Surgery is about 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost in Latin America, and you can always go there for your procedure... but do you really want to take that risk? If everything goes well, fantastic - but if something goes wrong, wouldn't you rather be in a Canadian hospital, instead of a foreign clinic?
Good on you for driving down your doctor's price, and since I don't think that hair plugs qualify as "invasive surgery" you probably could have done it for even less in another country. But some things are too important to go bargain-hunting - because, like all things in life, you tend to get what you pay for...
I think it is wrong that we have to flee our own country to get away from our Medical monopoly !
Where are our politicians whose job it is to ensure consumers get the best service for the least cost ???????????
If we broke up the MD monopoly it would be a boon to our economy as Americans would now come here for the cheaper operations !
I'm afraid that's not what I meant at all - I was simply pointing out that it's not a monopoly, because we have choices available to us. Besides, Americans who want cheap surgery will continue to go to Mexico for it - we won't become the plastic surgery destination of choice just because there are more surgeons.
My surgery cost a little less than $7,000 (I don't mind talking about it publicly because I'm claiming it as a business expense ) which includes:
Two 390-cc, low-profile, cohesive gel breast implants - $2,000
Operating Room rental fee (St. Joseph's hospital) - $960
Anaesthesiologist - $600
Surgeon's fee - $3,000
Plus applicable taxes (no GST charged on medical supplies) - around $250
Total - $6,810
For everything else, there's MasterCard...
So where's the wiggle room? He can't compromise on the cost of the supplies; that's set by the manufacturer. The Anaesthesiologist? She charges what she charges, and considering it was a general anaesthetic, I definitely wanted someone qualified. So there's no real compromise there.
What else? I could have had it done in a private clinic for about $200 less, but if something went wrong, I figured it was worth $200 to be in an actual hospital. Taxes? I could have saved the GST if I paid cash, but then I wouldn't be able to claim it as an expense. So what's left? His fee.
$3,000 for a 4-hour procedure is about $750 per hour. But that also includes the initial consultation, additional visits for more info, and the post-operative follow-ups (three days after surgery, one month after, and six months after) none of which he gets paid for. Considering I charge $250 an hour for my own services, $750 an hour doesn't seem so unreasonable.
Most of all, if he feels he's getting screwed on his fee, he's going to try to book another procedure on the same day to make up for it. That means he might rush through it, and won't take the time to make sure everything is done perfectly. That's where it's worth the extra money - paying him his requested fee so he takes the time to do the job right.
The actual cost for your hair plugs would probably be the same wherever you go, but if you're driving down the doctor's fee, it might affect his attention to detail, because he's eager to get to the next patient. Also, he won't give you priority for booking the procedure - a patient paying full price is more likely to keep their time slot, because the doctor won't bump you out for someone else who pays him what he thinks his time is worth. I had my surgery moved to a Thursday morning instead of a Friday afternoon, because I didn't want him rushing through it so he could get to to golf course. And guess what? They bumped somebody out of that slot to accommodate me, the customer paying full price.
Just my two cents - I agree that there are ways to get things done cheaper, but there are risks attached to it. When it comes to my health and safety, I prefer to pay whatever it costs to get the best possible care - some things in life aren't worth compromising on.
My surgery cost a little less than $7,000 (I don't mind talking about it publicly because I'm claiming it as a business expense
) which includes:Two 390-cc, low-profile, cohesive gel breast implants - $2,000
Operating Room rental fee (St. Joseph's hospital) - $960
Anaesthesiologist - $600
Surgeon's fee - $3,000
Plus applicable taxes (no GST charged on medical supplies) - around $250
Total - $6,810
For everything else, there's MasterCard...
So where's the wiggle room? He can't compromise on the cost of the supplies; that's set by the manufacturer. The Anaesthesiologist? She charges what she charges, and considering it was a general anaesthetic, I definitely wanted someone qualified. So there's no real compromise there.
What else? I could have had it done in a private clinic for about $200 less, but if something went wrong, I figured it was worth $200 to be in an actual hospital. Taxes? I could have saved the GST if I paid cash, but then I wouldn't be able to claim it as an expense. So what's left? His fee.
$3,000 for a 4-hour procedure is about $750 per hour. But that also includes the initial consultation, additional visits for more info, and the post-operative follow-ups (three days after surgery, one month after, and six months after) none of which he gets paid for. Considering I charge $250 an hour for my own services, $750 an hour doesn't seem so unreasonable.
Most of all, if he feels he's getting screwed on his fee, he's going to try to book another procedure on the same day to make up for it. That means he might rush through it, and won't take the time to make sure everything is done perfectly. That's where it's worth the extra money - paying him his requested fee so he takes the time to do the job right.
The actual cost for your hair plugs would probably be the same wherever you go, but if you're driving down the doctor's fee, it might affect his attention to detail, because he's eager to get to the next patient. Also, he won't give you priority for booking the procedure - a patient paying full price is more likely to keep their time slot, because the doctor won't bump you out for someone else who pays him what he thinks his time is worth. I had my surgery moved to a Thursday morning instead of a Friday afternoon, because I didn't want him rushing through it so he could get to to golf course. And guess what? They bumped somebody out of that slot to accommodate me, the customer paying full price.
Just my two cents - I agree that there are ways to get things done cheaper, but there are risks attached to it. When it comes to my health and safety, I prefer to pay whatever it costs to get the best possible care - some things in life aren't worth compromising on.
I disagree
Transplants cost thousands per hour and surgeons make up to a cool million per year in profit
Our choice is to leave our own country and go elsewhere
In the case of plants Americans would come here as they would feel justifiably safer as our government regulates the procedure
You are talking breast enhancement here. Each procedure has its own merits. Transplants can cost 30 K
I disagree.
Laymen can become qualified in this procedure and the price would drop dramatically
The quality may well increase as Md's are not qualified to do it even though they are the only ones allowed to do it
They do not learn this procedure in Medical School so they qualify themselves
Love a good debate esp with creative name calling
Most of what a doctor learns in his science degree he never uses and then forgets as do most of us with what we wasted are time learning in school
I challenge the concept that most of what a MD learns is needed to do annuals
Are you serious ?
How can any MD keep up to date on medicine when the knowledge increases exponentially?
Someone specializing in annuals could and should be required to do so .
A MD may or may not be up to date as it is his choice to do so under my plan it would be mandatory
A Chinese annual is radically different but from the program I saw on PBS it is amazing in its accuracy
Now go ask your MD if he can perform it
Yes the standards to perform any medicine should be high
No we do not have to have doctors do it all esp when they monopolize a simple procedure in order to gouge the public to make millions
The idea that you need years of medical training in obscure topics such as organic chemistry to do transplants is BULLSHIT
I disagree.
Most of what a doctor learns in his science degree he never uses and then forgets as do most of us with what we wasted are time learning in school
I challenge the concept that most of what a MD learns is needed to do annuals
Are you serious ?
How can any MD keep up to date on medicine when the knowledge increases exponentially?
Someone specializing in annuals could and should be required to do so .
A MD may or may not be up to date as it is his choice to do so under my plan it would be mandatory
A Chinese annual is radically different but from the program I saw on PBS it is amazing in its accuracy
Now go ask your MD if he can perform it
Yes the standards to perform any medicine should be high
No we do not have to have doctors do it all esp when they monopolize a simple procedure in order to gouge the public to make millions
The idea that you need years of medical training in obscure topics such as organic chemistry to do transplants is BULLSHIT
Fine discussion 4tees. I find you to be intersting and a challenge and fully capable of changing my mind but you have not done so quite yet
"But WHILE he is learning it, those ARE the needed skills to acquire knowledge. I need to know the letters of the alphabet before I learn how to spell and read - but now if I forget the letters of the alphabet, I can still spell and read."
That someone needs all that knowledge to do research I would agree with. That it is necessary to do some selected medical practices I strongly question
"Illogical and flawed. If knowledge increases exponentially, then you should be arguing for more training of medical professionals and not less."
I argue for specialized training by non Md's where applicable. Hard pressed to see the lack of logic on my part
"See your last quote "How can any MD keep up to date..." How can anyone in your system do same? Your point about exponential growth is so whacked it makes me want to go to my doctor and get a prescription for migraine medicine. As I said, Md's HAVE to keep up with latest developments. How else would anyone trained before 1980 know about HIV? How is your doctor learning about H1N1?"
There is tons of knowledge out there other than what hits the press. Md's can not possibly read and absorb it all
"I disagree that medical knowledge is expanding at an exponential rate, and if such were the case, then Md's would never be qualified to practice because they'd have to keep learning. Moreover, if your system had mandatory training (which exists for Md's already) on an exponentially increasing subject, then everyone would be learning, and no one would be treating."
Science knowledge is increasing exponentially whether you agree with me or not.
Some keep up better than others of course and yes, learning and training is an impossible challenge but my system makes for more specialized training therefore for better the improvement
"Organic chemistry obscure? It is THE course that every medical student needs to study and pass. Organic chemistry is the study of chemical reactions that contain carbon, and according to Wikipedia "they form the basis of ALL EARTHLY LIFE FORCES." Just like my alphabet example above, organic chemistry is what explains growth, cancer, cell replication, viruses, bacteria, blood, pharmacology, bodily processes - everything. Obscure - you have no idea what you're talking about."
Really, what fucking MD cures anything ? He prescribes the medicine that some genius with a PHD in organic Chemistry created that does the curing
All research scientists should know organic chemistry inside out
I took organic chemistry and it made my head spin more than Algebra and Calculus combined
Those who establish the training courses and write the texts should be well versed in it.
" I have no idea whether you need it to understand transplants - human hair certainly contains carbon - maybe there is an organic process involved in transplanting the hair to the scalp. Maybe there is an organic process so that the transplanted hair can grow. Maybe a doctor needs to decide which of two transplant methods is better based on their knowledge of organic chemistry. I've got no clue, and clearly you don't either."
Do you seriously think a transplant MD thinks about organic chemistry when making a decision about which methodology to perform ?
Here is my story :
There are two transplant methods. One involves slitting the scalp the other involves punching holes in the scalp. It occurred to me that the punch method reduced the scalp to be covered as the punched out scalp was removed, therefore, the plants would cover less scalp making for a denser end result.
I consulted several Md's on this topic, I even talked to the pioneer on the punch method as he received my call ( I pretended I was a MD)
It turns out the punch method is marginally better in the end result but more evasive so I opted for the slit method
Organic chemistry never came up with the doctors nor did any of the papers I read mention such obscure material
"I can tell you this - there is no way anyone should see a medical doctor who does not have training in organic chemistry. No one!!!!!!!!!"
No one get an annual from anyone who is not trained in all medical concepts on the topic.
Name me one Ohip MD that understands Chinese check up methodologies that have been used for thousands of years and are amazing in their results?
"But WHILE he is learning it, those ARE the needed skills to acquire knowledge. I need to know the letters of the alphabet before I learn how to spell and read - but now if I forget the letters of the alphabet, I can still spell and read."
That someone needs all that knowledge to do research I would agree with. That it is necessary to do some selected medical practices I strongly question
"Illogical and flawed. If knowledge increases exponentially, then you should be arguing for more training of medical professionals and not less."
I argue for specialized training by non Md's where applicable. Hard pressed to see the lack of logic on my part
"See your last quote "How can any MD keep up to date..." How can anyone in your system do same? Your point about exponential growth is so whacked it makes me want to go to my doctor and get a prescription for migraine medicine. As I said, Md's HAVE to keep up with latest developments. How else would anyone trained before 1980 know about HIV? How is your doctor learning about H1N1?"
There is tons of knowledge out there other than what hits the press. Md's can not possibly read and absorb it all
"I disagree that medical knowledge is expanding at an exponential rate, and if such were the case, then Md's would never be qualified to practice because they'd have to keep learning. Moreover, if your system had mandatory training (which exists for Md's already) on an exponentially increasing subject, then everyone would be learning, and no one would be treating."
Science knowledge is increasing exponentially whether you agree with me or not.
Some keep up better than others of course and yes, learning and training is an impossible challenge but my system makes for more specialized training therefore for better the improvement
"Organic chemistry obscure? It is THE course that every medical student needs to study and pass. Organic chemistry is the study of chemical reactions that contain carbon, and according to Wikipedia "they form the basis of ALL EARTHLY LIFE FORCES." Just like my alphabet example above, organic chemistry is what explains growth, cancer, cell replication, viruses, bacteria, blood, pharmacology, bodily processes - everything. Obscure - you have no idea what you're talking about."
Really, what fucking MD cures anything ? He prescribes the medicine that some genius with a PHD in organic Chemistry created that does the curing
All research scientists should know organic chemistry inside out
I took organic chemistry and it made my head spin more than Algebra and Calculus combined
Those who establish the training courses and write the texts should be well versed in it.
" I have no idea whether you need it to understand transplants - human hair certainly contains carbon - maybe there is an organic process involved in transplanting the hair to the scalp. Maybe there is an organic process so that the transplanted hair can grow. Maybe a doctor needs to decide which of two transplant methods is better based on their knowledge of organic chemistry. I've got no clue, and clearly you don't either."
Do you seriously think a transplant MD thinks about organic chemistry when making a decision about which methodology to perform ?
Here is my story :
There are two transplant methods. One involves slitting the scalp the other involves punching holes in the scalp. It occurred to me that the punch method reduced the scalp to be covered as the punched out scalp was removed, therefore, the plants would cover less scalp making for a denser end result.
I consulted several Md's on this topic, I even talked to the pioneer on the punch method as he received my call ( I pretended I was a MD)
It turns out the punch method is marginally better in the end result but more evasive so I opted for the slit method
Organic chemistry never came up with the doctors nor did any of the papers I read mention such obscure material
"I can tell you this - there is no way anyone should see a medical doctor who does not have training in organic chemistry. No one!!!!!!!!!"
No one get an annual from anyone who is not trained in all medical concepts on the topic.
Name me one Ohip MD that understands Chinese check up methodologies that have been used for thousands of years and are amazing in their results?
I am arguing over my head too
Kinda fun though
What I say is meant more of a debating topic more than absolute fact
But I cannot see where I am wrong esp when it comes to the monopoly on transplants
These possibilities of change I suggest have never been on the plate of public or private debate because the medical status quo wants to keep all monies
Medicine is a business like any other and this is not giving us optimum care at lowest cost because they have politicians in their pockets is my suspicion
Transplant Md's make up to a cool million per year in profit
They do not want to give that up
Consider pharmaceutical companies reaping huge profits
They protect their interest with lobbies and political donations
Consider those million dollar machines keeping people alive in some pathetic state of awareness and pain for a couple more months
Same profit margin as pharmaceuticals
Health care is a business
