Would you support tax rises or new fees to pay for the construction of subway lines?
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Various cities have applied a "tourist tax" to pay for things such as a pro sports complex. Why not do the same here? People fying out of Toronto airports (not a return-trip) pay a $10 tax. Book a hotel room in Toronto, there's a $1 tax per night, etc.... I'm just throwing that amount out there, but it can be whatever. The money raised goes towards the subway line construction and the constituents aren't up in arms over a tax increase.
Participants in a pooners' board should be very careful slinging the word 'obscene' around, no matter how colourful they want to be.
Everyone has a different idea of what reasonable means, but as to the 407 tolls, I believe both the Conservatives and Liberals examined the 407ETR and in spite of public pressure and easy popularity determined that the tolls were not actionable. No matter how tightly drafted a contract, the government holds all the cards when it comes to allowing businesses to conduct themselves unconscionably. Or 'obscenely'.
No complainer has ever produced evidence that 407ETR is profiting outside the range of ordinary business, neither direct empirical evidence like a peek at the books, nor circumstantial like the ORNGE stuff. It would be much more realistic to listen to the folks that say business does everything better than government, and take that 407 toll charge as the true cost of owning and maintaining a highway, plus some for rainy days and expansion. That is exactly what the tolls should be. And it makes transit a bargain for anything over a half dozen km out and back. Cost of owning the vehicle makes the break-even point way less.
What the 407 pays to their shareholders as profits we could then pay to transit systems that free up road space and reduce wear and tear. And with paid for roads we could use today's gas taxes to cover the other costs of running cars—medical costs for breathing disorders and accidents (we keep cutting insurance payouts instead) and pollution costs. Oh yeah, and transit.
But I'm sorry, you were going to tell us what you thought were 'reasonable' tolls.
I know someone that works for the 407 so I know something that I don't know if can be make public regarding those prices, so I won't comment further because I don't know if I should.
As for the "reasonable" tolls. I can't point to specific figures, but it would have to be derived from some sort of mathematical formula based on what the subways are going to cost and how many cars use said roads per day. The fees should be based on doing exactly what they are established to do and not became a financial windfall for city or province. As long as the numbers show the public it's the correct amount, then it would be "reasonable".
Secret knowledge aside—and if you only knew what I know but cannot tell…
Isn't that exactly how roads, and in fact everything should be priced? So there are no windfalls? And in fact isn't that precisely the City's problem, way too many expenses and no windfalls, at all. Not even big enough harveststo go around?
It still comes down to what's reasonable, and there ain't no mathematical formula for that. Never has been ever. Just people talking it out and eventually getting to where most of them find they're agreed. That's what happened the other day at City Council. Most of the people who we chose to decide such stuff agreed.
Meantime, if us folks want more, we gotta pay more. Cause that Plan is all we've got the money for so far. But how much more is the question. What's reasonable?
Proposal: We might start by taxing every car in Toronto. Say a mere $5 per month. And we could advertise to attract out of towners to pay into this Toronto Car Tax to make extra money. Why would they do that? Because they'd get a nifty, bar-coded windshield sticker just like real Toronto cars that would entitle them to a discount on parking charges. It could apply to GreenP lots, meters, and parking fines, and of course we'd get the discount too (not that we ever park illegally). It could incorporate and extend the other City parking fees like overnight and front yard parking in certain neighbourhoods. There could even be a fine for parking on any road, signed or not, if you didn't have the Toronto Car Tax sticker.
Think the Mayor would go for it? Or would he call it a windfall and swear he could do without? 'Windfall', could that be the new 'gravy'?
I expect that those who are not in favour of subways would be opposed to paying an extra tax for one. Maybe there are some oddballs out there who like paying taxes for something they are opposed to. I won't lose any sleep worrying about it though.
I'm not talking about about the lousy government finances on all levels over the last several decades. I just don't want any potential tolls to be used to cover shortfalls in other areas. I want it to be used ONLY for the subways. And when that's paid off it either continues to pay for more subways or it's terminated.
i think i read somewhere that the government once brought in a short term temporary measure to pay for the war........
think they called it INCOME TAX
But in the US it was the Civil War. Before that wars were funded by looting and pillage and by borrowing. As the last good war was by War Bonds Lend Lease and such that all but bankrupted Britain. It only costs less if you get less, and there's no more Indian land to steal. Gotta pay.
When you figure out how to make a Sunset Clause attractive to any pol, let us know. Harris backed off after musing about them. In the US, where they have so many more governments to run experiments there is little sign they've been either successful or popular.
Much like a proposal to give you a raise this year, but reset you back to your starting salary and make you bargain all over again next year would be. Like Harris's Sunshine Law which doesn't adjust for 15 years of inflation, it's losing touch with reality to imagine starting from scratch all the time. "That was decades ago!!"
But if you;d rather define 'starting from scratch' than 'reasonable tolls' have at it.
I want it to also pay for hospitals, the police, cleaning up the environment, the wars for oil in the Middle East - the true costs of damage cars cause. Not just a toll on some highway that can be circumvented but on every road and parking space and litre of gasoline.
If we pay the true costs, then the cleaner alternatives will be cheap in comparison.
If we pay the true costs, then the cleaner alternatives will be cheap in comparison.
Yes,
But it would need to be a special levy that would disappear once the subways were built and paid for. Mind you, they will not be complete in my lifetime.
I just want to make sure that the money would go into the subway fund and not some general revenue pot.
As to the how much - I would suggest 10% of your property taxes.
But it would need to be a special levy that would disappear once the subways were built and paid for. Mind you, they will not be complete in my lifetime.
I just want to make sure that the money would go into the subway fund and not some general revenue pot.
As to the how much - I would suggest 10% of your property taxes.
Although a small increase in property taxes would be a good idea, that's not the solution Kirk.. the people paying the bulk would be residents of Toronto and the bulk of the users on the highways don't live here.
The 905ers who are responsible for most of the traffic congestion in Toronto and drive their $50K plus SUVs into Toronto everyday, will say they shouldn't pay for something they don't use, or to furnish a subway in a city they don't live in but make a livelihood driving to a from everyday as the put wear and tear on it's roadways.
Afterall many would be against tolls for entering Toronto also as they've been taxed once already and the proceeds should partly have gone towards the roads they be using already were they properly managed and allocated.
I am all for fixed but meagre tolls much like the 50cent or under tolls in the USA that you pay at one point each way,that would be not only properly managed, but also fully used towards such projects as subways.
Afterall many would be against tolls for entering Toronto also as they've been taxed once already and the proceeds should partly have gone towards the roads they be using already were they properly managed and allocated.
I am all for fixed but meagre tolls much like the 50cent or under tolls in the USA that you pay at one point each way,that would be not only properly managed, but also fully used towards such projects as subways.
As long as it is all built underground without surface light rail, I'd pay extra taxes and roads tolls for it.
Just don't destroy other streets like St. Clair Ave. was. Transit only reduces road congestion when it is underground. Ford at least knows this much, and it is why he got his mandate. Getting traffic off the road is the point, not carving up the roads and making one hell of a mess with surface light rail.
A real problem, whether one likes surface rail or subways, is that these east west lines funnel people to the Yonge line to go into the city in the morning and back home again at night. Condo developers will want to built more condos near those new stations east/west, so those lines aren't just serving existing residents but will get more residents using them. The Yonge line is already at capacity in the rush hour period. Not sure of the solution to this problem, but it is basically impossible to take the subway north from Bloor station during an extended rush hour unless one wants to forgo all personal dignity and be stuffed into a train - and even then one can't get on a lot of the time. Sitting in traffic gridlock on the DVP for hours is bad, but at least one isn't treated like livestock being sent to a slaughterhouse like one is trying to take the subway north from Bloor between 4:30pm and 6pm.
Just don't destroy other streets like St. Clair Ave. was. Transit only reduces road congestion when it is underground. Ford at least knows this much, and it is why he got his mandate. Getting traffic off the road is the point, not carving up the roads and making one hell of a mess with surface light rail.
A real problem, whether one likes surface rail or subways, is that these east west lines funnel people to the Yonge line to go into the city in the morning and back home again at night. Condo developers will want to built more condos near those new stations east/west, so those lines aren't just serving existing residents but will get more residents using them. The Yonge line is already at capacity in the rush hour period. Not sure of the solution to this problem, but it is basically impossible to take the subway north from Bloor station during an extended rush hour unless one wants to forgo all personal dignity and be stuffed into a train - and even then one can't get on a lot of the time. Sitting in traffic gridlock on the DVP for hours is bad, but at least one isn't treated like livestock being sent to a slaughterhouse like one is trying to take the subway north from Bloor between 4:30pm and 6pm.
The follow-on to Transit City is supposed to be the Downtown Relief Line, which would create a third path up from the city core over towards Pape to augment the Yonge and University lines. Some of it could run along beside the DVP perhaps.
