Participants in a pooners' board should be very careful slinging the word 'obscene' around, no matter how colourful they want to be.I voted yes, including road tolls. However, they'd have to be reasonable. The 407 is obscene and any tolls on the other highways should be considerably lower than that. If they were that high then I would not support those tolls.
I know someone that works for the 407 so I know something that I don't know if can be make public regarding those prices, so I won't comment further because I don't know if I should.Participants in a pooners' board should be very careful slinging the word 'obscene' around, no matter how colourful they want to be.
Everyone has a different idea of what reasonable means, but as to the 407 tolls, I believe bot the Conservatives and Liberals examined the 407ETR and in spite of public pressure and easy popularity determined that the tolls were not actionable. No matter how tightly drafted a contract, the government hold all the cards when it comes to allowing businesses to conduct themselves unconscionably. Or 'obscenely'.
No complainer has ever produced evidence that 407ETR is profiting outside the range of ordinary business, neither direct empirical evidence like a peek at the books, nor circumstantial like ORNGE. It would be much more realistic to listen to the folks that say business does everything better than government and take the 407 toll charge as the cost of owning and maintaining a highway, plus some for rainy days and expansion. That is exactly what the tolls should be.
What they pay to their shareholders as profits we could then pay to transit systems that free up road space and reduce wear and tear. And with paid for roads we could use today's gas taxes to cover the other costs of running cars—medical costs for breathing disorders and accidents (we keep cutting insurance payouts instead) and pollution costs. Oh yeah, and transit.
But I'm sorry, you were going to tell us what you thought were 'reasonable' tolls.
Secret knowledge aside—and if you only knew what I know but cannot tell…I know someone that works for the 407 so I know something that I don't know if can be make public regarding those prices, so I won't comment further because I don't know if I should.
As for the "reasonable" tolls. I can't point to specific figures, but it would have to be derived from some sort of mathematical formula based on what the subways are going to cost and how many cars use said roads per day. The fees should be based on doing exactly what they are established to do and not became a financial windfall for city or province. As long as the numbers show the public it's the correct amount, then it would be "reasonable".
I expect that those who are not in favour of subways would be opposed to paying an extra tax for one. Maybe there are some oddballs out there who like paying taxes for something they are opposed to. I won't lose any sleep worrying about it though.You forgot to mention that only those in favour of subways should respond. DUH!!
I'm not talking about about the lousy government finances on all levels over the last several decades. I just don't want any potential tolls to be used to cover shortfalls in other areas. I want it to be used ONLY for the subways. And when that's paid off it either continues to pay for more subways or it's terminated.Secret knowledge aside—and if you only knew what I know but cannot tell…
Isn't that exactly how roads, and in fact everything should be priced? So there are no windfalls? And in fact isn't that precisely the City's problem, way too many expenses and no windfalls?
It still comes down to what's reasonable, and there ain't no mathematical formula for that. Never has been ever. Just people talking it out and eventually getting to where most of them find they're agreed. That's what happened the other day at City Council. Most of the people who we chose to decide such stuff agreed.
i think i read somewhere that the government once brought in a short term temporary measure to pay for the war........I'm not talking about about the lousy government finances on all levels over the last several decades. I just don't want any potential tolls to be used to cover shortfalls in other areas. I want it to be used ONLY for the subways. And when that's paid off it either continues to pay for more subways or it's terminated.
But in the US it was the Civil War. Before that wars were funded by looting and pillage and by borrowing. As the last good war was by War Bonds Lend Lease and such that all but bankrupted Britain. It only costs less if you get less, and there's no more Indian land to steal. Gotta pay.i think i read somewhere that the government once brought in a short term temporary measure to pay for the war........
think they called it INCOME TAX
Exactly, and for what?The poll is missing the only peice of information that matters. How much?
Although a small increase in property taxes would be a good idea, that's not the solution Kirk.. the people paying the bulk would be residents of Toronto and the bulk of the users on the highways don't live here.Yes,
But it would need to be a special levy that would disappear once the subways were built and paid for. Mind you, they will not be complete in my lifetime.
I just want to make sure that the money would go into the subway fund and not some general revenue pot.
As to the how much - I would suggest 10% of your property taxes.
The follow-on to Transit City is supposed to be the Downtown Relief Line, which would create a third path up from the city core over towards Pape to augment the Yonge and University lines. Some of it could run along beside the DVP perhaps.The Yonge line is already at capacity in the rush hour period. Not sure of the solution to this problem