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Would you support an asbolute ban on all guns?

Would you support an absolute ban on guns like countries such as Japan does?

  • Yes, I think it would be better in general if guns were banned

    Votes: 51 47.2%
  • No, I think the restrictions we have in place are good enough

    Votes: 38 35.2%
  • No, I think we should make guns more accessible, like the US

    Votes: 19 17.6%

  • Total voters
    108

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,268
105
63
It doesn't make sense.

We have constitutional protections against a govt actually becoming tyrannical.

But if they infact do become tyrannical you are assuming that a fully armed populace will be able to stand up to an army. You are assuming that this fully armed populace will put themselves on the line with no regard to their families safety. You are assuming that they are even trained enough and physically and mentally in shape to be able to fight an army. Lastly you are not even considering that the army has superior fire power and technology that a fully armed population does not.

Realistically, in the event the US govt. turns on its citizens, the people will lose big time and lose fast. In most cases they will simply surrender.
Everything you have written tells me you grew up in a privileged household, never been in a fight and know nothing about firearms.

You're another armchair intellectual like basketcase when it comes to firearms.

I also appears you have never heard of Columbine before.

If you disarm the street police officer, you will get the Columbine situation happening over and over again. They waited for SWAT which resulted in a high body count. Tactics have now changed where patrol officers are now equiped with semi automatic rifles so they can stop the threat as soon as possible.

Banning firearms will do absolutely nothing to prevent crime because we share the longest undefended land border with the United States where the number of guns outnumbers the entire population.

It's also obvious you don't know much about history. Despite having superior firepower and technology, the U.S. could not win in Vietnam. Despite having superior firepower and technology, the coalition forces could not win in Afghanistan.

Get out of your Toronto apartment or whatever bubble you live in and see how the rest of Canada lives.
 
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krealtarron

Hardened Member
Nov 12, 2021
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Everything you have written tells me you grew up in a privileged household, never been in a fight and know nothing about firearms.

You're another armchair intellectual like basketcase when it comes to firearms.

I also appears you have never heard of Columbine before.

If you disarm the street police officer, you will get the Columbine situation happening over and over again. They waited for SWAT which resulted in a high body count. Tactics have now changed where patrol officers are now equiped with semi automatic rifles so they can stop the threat as soon as possible.

Banning firearms will do absolutely nothing to prevent crime because we share the longest undefended land border with the United States where the number of guns outnumbers the entire population.
Banning firearms and confiscating existing ones will most definitely bring down gun violence. Especially mass shootings as is evidenced in other countries where similar measures have been taken.

And Columbine? Okay. What about Uvalde? Where the officers were armed but hung back and did jack shit for an hour, while the shooting was going on? This conclusion that disarming street police officers will result in Columbine is therefore an incorrect conclusion. I am advocating for guns being banned first for the civilian population and then for the police. Heck it does not matter if police are not disarmed, but its essential that civilians not be allowed to have guns at the very least.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,268
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Banning firearms and confiscating existing ones will most definitely bring down gun violence. Especially mass shootings as is evidenced in other countries where similar measures have been taken.

And Columbine? Okay. What about Uvalde? Where the officers were armed but hung back and did jack shit for an hour, while the shooting was going on? This conclusion that disarming street police officers will result in Columbine is therefore an incorrect conclusion. I am advocating for guns being banned first for the civilian population and then for the police. Heck it does not matter if police are not disarmed, but its essential that civilians not be allowed to have guns at the very least.
You are ignoring the fact that it is impossible to do because we are landlocked with the United States. That's where the illegal firearms are coming from:

Hundreds of charges laid, 173 guns seized in firearm trafficking operation, police say | CBC News

The Uvalde Officers were ready to go. Leadership held them up.

You don't know anything about firearms. Not a single thing.
 

krealtarron

Hardened Member
Nov 12, 2021
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You are ignoring the fact that it is impossible to do because we are landlocked with the United States.

The Uvalde Officers were ready to go. Leadership held them up.

You don't know anything about firearms. Not a single thing.
I dont have to know anything about firearms for this particular issue. We are not talking about how to shoot a gun.

This is an issue of proliferation of firearms leading to mass shootings. It is a social issue.

As for Uvalde, it doesn't matter who held who up. Bottomline armed police officers did nothing while kids were dying. My point is your extrapolation that somehow street armed police officers were going to stop crime is not a logical conclusion.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,268
105
63
I dont have to know anything about firearms for this particular issue. We are not talking about how to shoot a gun.

This is an issue of proliferation of firearms leading to mass shootings. It is a social issue.

As for Uvalde, it doesn't matter who held who up. Bottomline armed police officers did nothing while kids were dying. My point is your extrapolation that somehow street armed police officers were going to stop crime is not a logical conclusion.
Look at you, trying to be all intellectual about this. If you knew what was happening in real life, you wouldn't make such outlandish statements.

Armed robbery suspect shot, killed by Surrey RCMP, watchdog investigating - BC | Globalnews.ca
 
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DinkleMouse

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2022
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It is well known that dictatorships and totalitarian states disarm their populations.
It is well stated by the pro-gun lobby. It is not well known. For example, the Weimar Republic disarmed everyone and passed strict gun control laws. Hitler and the Nazis came to power and actually weakened them.

Also a large number of countries have stiffened gun control laws and not become oppressive regimes. It's a nonsense argument.

In the 20th century, FAR more people were killed by their own governments than were by criminals. China's Great Leap Forward. Camodia's Khmer |Rouge. Stalin's purges. Dictatorships everywhere kill opponents at will.
Mao Zedong armed his followers in order to win a civil war. The import and sale of guns had been banned in 1912, 15 years later Mao armed his followers in violation of this law (as per his famous quote "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"). In 1957 a ban on the manufacture of guns was added to the bans from 1912 (with the Great Leap Forward starting in 1958). So really, it wasn't Mao who banned them, but rather the government that feared Mao's uprising. And by the time Mao had banned the manufacture, millions had already been killed. So I'm not buying your argument here.

As for the Khmer Rouge, gun control laws were passed in 1920 and 1938. The Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot were in power from 1975-1979, during which time no gun control laws were passed. Like Mao, they went around arming themselves. They did take weapons from people they didn't like and arm themselves, but that's not gun control; that's a violent, murdering rampage and the laws are irrelevant.

Stalin is about the only dictator who did indeed pass gun control measures.

But I don't get the argument. Even if your claim that dictators ban guns is true, what does that have to do with a debate on gun control in a democratic society?

Hitler came to power in a country that had strong gun control, as did Mao. Meanwhile Stalin came to power in a country that didn't. Ergo gun control laws neither cause nor prevent genocidal dictators from coming to power. So how is that possibility relevant? Besides, even if a dictator came to power tomorrow in the US, and even if your claim that they would want to ban guns is true, no laws today would prevent them from doing so. Even the Constitution. As we've seen in Hungary, a dictator will just replace anyone he has to until they agree with him.

But how has the Venezuelan government been able to stay in power? The Venezuelan government’s civilian disarmament campaign is an oft-ignored abuse of human rights in discussions concerning Venezuela’s political crisis.

Now Venezuelans have no way of defending themselves against a government that is free to muzzle their speech, expropriate their wealth, debase their currency, and starve them to death.

When you ban all guns, you effectively eliminate the ability of the population to kick out of power a government by force. The government takes over the judiciary,an arm of the government, (the dictatorship) it becomes then the organs of state power, then VOILA! welcome to the pleasure dome of totalitarianism.

Please, those of you who advocate banning guns, please tell me:

When an oppressive government arrives, destroys independent media and dissent, destoys an independent judiciary - tell me this:

How do you boot the assholes out?
You won't be able to boot them out with civilian weapons either.

You may want to look at the history of armed resistances. Whenever someone says, "Do you really think a bunch of civilians with ARs can defeat the Army?" the pro-gun crowd brings up Afghanistan and Vietnam.

I'll start with Vietnam. Whether you look at the First Indochina War against France or the Second Indochina War against the US, the Vietnamese forces weren't isolated civilians fighting imperialist powers. They were supplied and equipped by the Chinese, the Soviets, the Laotians, the East Germans, etc. This constant flood of weapons and ammunition was critical. Without it, the outcomes of these wars would look different.

Afghanistan is a similar story. Against the Russians they were armed, supplied, and trained by the US. Against the US they were armed, supplied and trained by the Russians.

I remember reading a few white papers on the topic during my time in the military and they all universally agreed: whether armed or not, a populace required outside support to successfully overthrow a regime if that regime has the support of the military and law enforcement.

So imagine a dictator comes to power in the US, and that dictator has widespread support among the military and police, and that no outside country assists. This dictator bans guns except amongst his followers, setting harsh penalties like execution for those who don't obey. How long do you think the population holds out? Even those who have guns now eventually end up in a position where they can't carry them in public for fear of being caught (which is what we see now in Vietnam and China). Those stockpiled arms become useless.

On the other hand, if the dictator doesn't have the widespread support of the military and police, and if an outside power does assist partisans standing against the oppressive regime, then whether there were ARs in everyone's basement is irrelevant because there will be actual assault weapons being made available instead.

At the end of the day, gun control laws passed by a reasonable, democratic government are not necessarily a sign of tyranny, and should tyranny come knocking in the future, the status of that existent gun control will have no great effect at the end of the day in either preventing or assisting it's rise, or at hindering or hampering a successful restoration of democratic authority.
 
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DinkleMouse

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2022
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An armed population of citizens becomes unoccupiable.
Except you tried to claim dictators disarmed the people. That implies the people were armed to begin with, and yet they still managed to both come to power and then subsequently disarm the people. So it sounds like, based on your own arguments, an armed population is irrelevant.

Of course I disagree with your initial premise, but supposedly you agree with yourself, meaning you've contradicted yourself.
 
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krealtarron

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cunning linguist

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2009
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I dont have to know anything about firearms for this particular issue.
For me, this is by far the most infuriating part of the gun control "debate"; people who are proud of their willful ignorance and are yet so arrogant enough to believe that they, in their ignorance, should dictate law or policy.

Sure, you don't have to know to have an opinion and speak to it; that doesn't mean your input should be valued.
 
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poorboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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What does this prove?

Perhaps if there were no guns there wouldn't be an armed robbery (assuming the perps were armed with guns) for the police to respond in the first place.
You keep ignoring the fact the no guns scenario is impossible because we live beside the United States.

Get outside and exercise instead of trying to defend an impossible stance.

Let's say this robber was using a knife to commit this crime. How would you expect the police to stop someone who is wielding a weapon that can kill someone?
 
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krealtarron

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For me, this is by far the most infuriating part of the gun control "debate"; people who are proud of their willful ignorance and are yet so arrogant enough to believe that they, in their ignorance, should dictate law or policy.

Sure, you don't have to know to have an opinion and speak to it; that doesn't mean your input should be valued.
Why exactly is a persons knowledge on how to shoot a gun relevant to a discussion on a social issue related to gun proliferation and crime? This has more to do with your assumptions about people that they are against guns because they are afraid of it (because they dont know guns), rather than being able to see the actual problem that is being created by gun proliferation.
 

krealtarron

Hardened Member
Nov 12, 2021
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You keep ignoring the fact the no guns scenario is impossible because we live beside the United States.

Get outside and exercise instead of trying to defend an impossible stance.

Let's say this robber was using a knife to commit this crime. How would you expect the police to stop someone who is wielding a weapon that can kill someone?
They can use a taser. But that is besides the point. I am primarily advocating for disarming the public, and am not that hell bent on disarming the police.

Also, why is it impossible for Canada to be without guns because it is next to the US? We can have strict checks and laws in place.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
1,268
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Why exactly is a persons knowledge on how to shoot a gun relevant to a discussion on social issue related to gun proliferation and crime? This has more to do with your assumptions about people that they are against guns because they are afraid of it (because they dont know guns), rather than being able to see the actual problem that is being created by gun proliferation.
It proves you are an armchair quarterback who likes to sit back and criticize. You have no idea of the type of people who actually own firearms or what it takes to get one and what they are used for. You just believe what the media has spoon fed you.
 
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poorboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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They can use a taser. But that is besides the point. I am primarily advocating for disarming the public, and am not that hell bent on disarming the police.

Also, why is it impossible for Canada to be without guns because it is next to the US? We can have strict checks and laws in place.
Further proof you have never been in a fight. Also proves you have never been in a stressful situation. Is your alternate handle basketcase?

You are expecting this police officer to use a less lethal weapon against someone who has a lethal weapon and win coming from an underdog position because he is reacting, not acting.

You truly do live in a bubble and have no idea what you are talking about.

Strict checks and laws are not stopping illegal importation of firearms from the United States. Newsflash. Criminals don't follow the law.

Join an gym. Go for a walk. Just go outside and be active.
 
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cunning linguist

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Why exactly is a persons knowledge on how to shoot a gun relevant to a discussion on a social issue related to gun proliferation and crime? This has more to do with your assumptions about people that they are against guns because they are afraid of it (because they dont know guns), rather than being able to see the actual problem that is being created by gun proliferation.
Are you seriously asking why knowledge of the subject is relevant to a discussion?

Okay...

How about all the people screeching about background checks, who are unfamiliar with the process of legally acquiring a firearm?

How about all the people who want a particular firearm or cartridge banned, who have little to no understanding about how it or basic ballistics works?

You seriously don't see a problem with this?

 

krealtarron

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Nov 12, 2021
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Are you seriously asking why knowledge of the subject is relevant to a discussion?

Okay...

How about all the people screeching about background checks, who are unfamiliar with the process of legally acquiring a firearm?

How about all the people who want a particular firearm or cartridge banned, who have little to no understanding about how it or basic ballistics works?

You seriously don't see a problem with this?

The process of how to USE a gun has absolutely zilch to do with the social issue of crime, mass shootings and proliferation of weapons.

There is no knowledge of ballistics required to say that rifles should be banned, or certain calibers of firearms should be banned because there is an observable and demonstrable issue with certain calibers of guns being used in every mass shooting.

Knowledge of acquiring a firearm is not required in order to advocate for stricter background checks or screening, because there is a demonstrable and observable issue with perps using legally procured firearms to shoot up kids in schools.

In short, the knowledge of the topics you are bringing up is irrelevant to a discussion on the social issue of gun proliferation, mass shootings and gun related crime, that is otherwise not present in other developed nations, where restrictions similar to the ones that are being proposed, were imposed.
 
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johnd5050

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Jul 6, 2012
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This is the mentality down south,, forget her name but some broad in the states saying her 2 YEAR OLD GRANDSON already owns a couple of guns...
This dumb ass bytche is a republican governor of a US state. Does it surprise you ? Money talks.
 
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johnd5050

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Law abiding citizens are not having to defend themselves from criminals even today as in 99.99% of cases they do not come into contact with them and even when they do, put themselves in a position where they have to rely on their guns to defend themselves. So it is a non issue.
Spend a week in Washington DC, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit etc and you will change your opinion.
 
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johnd5050

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it depends a lot on how much your population is fucked in the head. Israel and Switzerland have a shit ton of guns but they don't use them as Muricans do.
Other countries like Israel, Switzerland etc do no publicize guns, crime etc like the USA.
 

krealtarron

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Nov 12, 2021
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Spend a week in Washington DC, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit etc and you will change your opinion.
I used to live in Chicago and work in Detroit. These issues are relegated to certain neighbourhoods. Never had a gun and never had a problem even when I used to go to those neighborhoods once in a while.
 
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