World Trade Center Proposals

Cave Carson

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Nov 10, 2001
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If it's not rebuilt exactly the same way as it was (well perhaps with slightly higher towers), the Islamists will have won!
 

luckyjackson

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Aug 19, 2001
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First, I think you mean terrorists, not Muslims or Islamists.

Second, whatever they put on this ground would have to acknowledge the fact that it is a grave site. So, replacing the buildings that were there would not be the best choice. Should be something commerorative, powerful and defiant of the terrorists' beliefs. Americans will not build until they're sure. I hope they pull it off with the class and success the space and memory merit.
 
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Cave Carson

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Northred!

The terrorists will have "won" in the sense that they will have succeeded in permanently altering the landscape of the U.S. in a major fashion. They will be able to claim that they have not only destroyed something significant but also that the Americans dare not rebuild the same out of fear that the rebuilt WTC will be similarly brought down!

Jackson!

"First, I think you mean terrorists, not Muslims or Islamists."

I don't mean Muslims. I do mean Islamists. Are you aware that an Islamist is a fundamentalist Muslim who is willing to employ force to spread Islam?

"Should be something commerorative, powerful and defiant of the terrorists' beliefs."

What could be more defiant than rebuilding the exact same WTC towers but even higher? That sure as hell would indicate that you will not be intimidated! The only thing you might want to add is something like a naked statue of a goddess like Ishtar (the Near Eastern goddess of love) to further thumb your nose at the Islamists!
 

vidi vici veni

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Aug 17, 2001
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Across the Rubicon
kiarra said:
It would be nice to stick it to the people responsible for this by building it bigger then before[snip]
Revenge by rebuilding those towers?! That's a fantasy. But the WTC was ugly. That's no fantasy. To rebuild those umimaginative monstrosities - and even bigger? - would only stick it to the people of New York.

vvv
 

Cave Carson

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VVV!

Lies! Vicious lies! The twin towers were simply beautiful! Starkly elegant, they came to personify the Manhattan skyline and also America itself! Why do you think they were chosen by the terrorists as their target?

Why do you dislike them? Do you think they were particularly ill-executed examples of modern architecture? Do you like Ludwig Mies van der Rohe's TD Centre in Toronto? Are you an enemy of all modern architecture? Are you instead a fan of these post-modern abominations with all their little curlycues (like the new Confederation Life building on Bloor Street) that have cropped up in the last twelve years?
 
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luckyjackson

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Cave Carson,

Don't know what dictionary you are using that defines Islamist as a Muslim willing to use force. I've never seen the word defined that way, thanks for setting me straight - I think.

The towers will never be rebuilt as they were, and I think that's a good thing. Coicidentally there was a program on CBC last night with Eleanor Waktele interviewing various New York personalities about the effort to decide what will be built on that site. In fact, every 'authority' on architecture, including the Architecture critic for the New Yorker, agreed that the twin towers were ugly. Nonetheless, they also agreed that their disappearence from the skyline was traumatic.

It simply would not be appropriate to but another two huge office towers there. The families of the victims would not want that, and it's easy to see why. It's a huge area, I'm sure they'll do something that will be tasteful, forceful, and a tribute.
 
Defiance Schmiance!

WARNING: Anti-American rhetoric follows

We live in a complex world of politics and pollution, popstars and pornography. Its not all black and white, mostly shades of grey. Good vs Evil. East vs West. God vs Allah. Bearded vs Clean. Yeah right.

Why concern yourself with getting revenge on al Qaeda so much? Will that make you feel better or improve the future for our children? I'd rather reward the city or pay tribute to the victims.

Isn't going to where they live and killing them enough.

Why not build the most tasteful, international and lovely structure imaginable? Why not gift New Yokers with something that they can be proud of? Admit it. The old ones were ugly.

Otherwise construct a lovely garden or the tallest motherf*king obelisk known to man. Each would be a tribute to man's ability and imagination.

An idea I like is tall towers shaped like and representing a family with two kids. I can just imagine the people in New Jersey complaining about the tall NY "people" always looking down on them.

Remember it was the WORLD Trade Centre not GEORGE WASHINGTON Place. As such, do not build Redneck Cowboy Tower with a massive cross and huge flag.

Why not have a mosque included in the structure. I think that would be effective defensive mechanism. Far better than reinforced steel.

Just my opinion
 

Cave Carson

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Jackson!

The word "Islamist" has only recently gained currency to describe this new resurgent strain of aggressively expansionist Islam that has cropped up in the last 35 years or so!

Romeo!

"Otherwise construct a lovely garden or the tallest motherf*king obelisk known to man."

The idea of the tall obelisk does have its appeal.

"An idea I like is tall towers shaped like and representing a family with two kids."

Excuse me! I have to go puke now! The whole family values thing always turns my stomach.

"Why not have a mosque included in the structure. I think that would be effective defensive mechanism."

Wimpy! Where's the defiance in that? The Islamists will be able to claim that they got the Americans to build another mosque!
 

luckyjackson

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In the last 35 years? Gained currency among who? I was of course only kidding about taking the term seriously as you used it. 'Islamist' is just another (and in my opinion more awkward), term for Muslim. As such, it is an inaccurate way of referring to the fools who use terror to try to get their way.
 

Cave Carson

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"Gained currency among who?" - Luckyjackson

Primarily syndicated newspaper columnists - the chattering classes as some would say! The other element added to aggressive fundamentalist Islam to create Islamism is a dose of liberation theology - the theory that the poverty of third-world countries is due to their exploitation by the developed countries of the West! Thus is another "ism"- like the late unlamented fascism and communism - created!
 

luckyjackson

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Well, you could certainly do better than to take your cue from the media on the labels you apply. In this case you've obviously been misinformed.

I presume you would see the injusitice in identifying an IRA bomber as 'Catholic' or 'Christian', it's the same story here. It's just wrong to refer to the terrorists as Islamist.
 

pool

pure evil
Aug 20, 2001
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originally posted by Lucky Jackson It's just wrong to refer to the terrorists as Islamist.
I would agree, but only in that the term Islamist, appears to encompass all those who base their beleifs on Islam.

I really wouldn't be coining terms used by the so called chattering class CC.
 

Cave Carson

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Jackson! Pool!

"I presume you would see the injusitice in identifying an IRA bomber as 'Catholic' or 'Christian', it's the same story here."

Your analogy would be correct had I used the word "Muslim", but I did not! I agree that the word "Islamist" is at present likely to be confused with Muslims in general. Unfortunately, I know of no other word to describe that precise political philosophy arising from Islam! Do you?

Moreover, I thought the newspaper articles - from which I learned the word - were excellent! I can't access any of those articles right now so I'll repost Pagan/Hepcat's letter to the editor on the subject of Islamism and religious fundamentalism in general:

"I read, with disgust, Jerry Falwell's comments in which he sought to partially blame "pagans...and all those who have tried to secularize America" for last week's cataclysm. Falwell actually seeks to create a society fundamentally similar to that envisaged by the Islamists, a fundamentalist Christian one compared to a fundamentalist Muslim one. He, of course, fails to see the irony.

There is, however, yet a deeper irony. An examination of the motives of the plane hijackers reveals that Falwell is on one level correct. Islamists seek jihad against the West for two closely related reasons:

1. The first is that they are bewildered by the material prosperity of the Western "infidels" while they, loyal servants of Allah, are dirt poor. The Islamists fail to see that it is precisely their devotion to their creed which has kept the Muslim world economically and scientifically backward for centuries. The full flowering of human creativity can come only from minds unencumbered by the strictures of inflexible religious dogma. This dichotomy between the West's prosperity and their own poverty gives rise to the hate that causes the Islamists to attack the West and its symbols of prosperity. (If we can't have it, then neither can you!) In other words, it is the politics of envy carried through to its final extreme. Since the United States epitomizes a modern secular society, the brunt of this envy is borne by the U.S.

2. The second reason is that the Islamists very rightly fear that the prosperity of the "decadent" West will undermine the appeal of their own fundamentalist dogma to fellow Muslims. The Islamists fear that their own populace will be "corrupted" by the lure of the economic prosperity attainable by unfettered minds in free markets. The Islamists therefore feel compelled to at least destroy these symbols of the West's prosperity that they themselves can never create.

The irony is that the Islamists would not find the glittering symbols of economic success to attack if the West was indeed ruled by the principles Falwell (and Michael Coren) espouses. The economic success of the West has been precisely the product of the free and secular minds that Falwell and his ilk would stifle!"

Pagan

17 September 2001
 
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luckyjackson

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CC, you seem like a guy who's genuinely interested in the subject at hand, so I don't mind trading messages with you. But keep an open mind.

The article you included is a great example of the kind of trouble arising from the misuse of the word we're discussing.

Have you actually opened a dictionary and checked the meaning of Islamist? Oxford says it means a follower of Islam. In other words, a Muslim. If western pundits are ascribing another meaning to it, you should be wary of accepting their new meaning. It is wrong and encourages prejudice.

My analogy works with both the word Muslim and Islamist - because they mean the same thing. It does NOT refer to a political following, or even a cultural one. So when a lazy journalist uses it that way, he's simply wrong. If you really do care about discussing things intelligently, surely you'll admit the importance of using the correct word - which in this case is not Islamist.
 

Cave Carson

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Jackson!

I admit that I don't remember checking for "Islamist" in the dictionary. I'd actually never come across the word until I saw it used (and defined) in newspaper columnist articles after September 11th. Nonetheless, you're still leaving me with the problem of what to call the political philosophy behind the terrorist acts of September 11th!
 
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