With half of students failing or quitting, university calculus hitting Manitobans....

canada-man

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Manitoba students are so unprepared for university calculus that half of them are either failing the first-year class or withdrawing long before the final exam takes place.

And how well they did in high school pre-calculus doesn't seem to indicate whether they'll succeed in university calculus.

Darja Barr, a University of Manitoba math professor, analyzed 15 years of marks for students who took pre-calculus in a Grade 12 Manitoba classroom and introductory calculus at her university.

She found high school grades were a poor indicator of future success, which she said is disturbing, since Grade 12 pre-calculus is designed to prepare students for university calculus.

"It really does hit students like a ton of bricks when they get to university," Barr said.

In the last year of her study, she found high-achieving students in one Winnipeg school division — who earned an A or A+ in pre-calculus — were as likely to fail calculus in university as they were to earn another A or A+.

A professor for 13 years, Barr knows it's common for A students in high school to drop one grade point when they enter post-secondary.

Students baffled

But too many students in her classes are barely treading water — and she argues Manitoba's education system deserves some of the blame.

"I want to figure out why the disconnect is happening," said Barr, who turned her research into a PhD thesis in education this year.

"I would have students come to me after a midterm and say, 'I don't understand what's happening. I got 90s in high school.'"

Barr's work aligns with other Canadian research showing deteriorating math scores countrywide. Students also struggle in other subjects, but the problem is most pronounced in mathematics and the sciences, she said.

In response to her own research, Barr asked the commission reviewing Manitoba's kindergarten-to-Grade-12 school system to improve the pre-calculus curriculum so students are prepared to continue their math education.

She worries the status quo is discouraging people from careers in mathematics and the sciences.

Barr analyzed the grades of more than 12,000 students who took first-year introductory calculus at the U of M from 2001 to 2015, excluding students who voluntarily withdrew from the class and who did not go to high school in Manitoba.

She found the percentage of students with a final grade of C or better went to around 50 per cent of the class in 2015, from 65-70 per cent of students five years earlier.

Her data shows students who scored well in calculus also did well in pre-calculus. However, there was no correlation between students who struggled in university math and their previous pre-calculus mark.

In fact, students with good grades in pre-calculus (4.5 GPA) were almost as likely to fail as students with poorer grades (2 GPA).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mani...es-calculus-pre-calculus-university-1.5399553
 

bebe

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Aug 17, 2001
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The never should have eliminated grade 13. This is the best time to start learning Calculus, before they go to Uni.

Shit I had to study math for 3 year at Uni Level to get my degree. Each year the shit got harder and harder. Calculus was just the basic requirement.
 

JuanGoodman

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Jun 29, 2019
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Who cares about Calculus, as long as they get to protest climate change on a school day.
 

JackBurton

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Sounds like the university is doing a great job in weeding out the weak. Can you imagine if someone was so clueless about math wound up gazelling their way thru engineering without competence just because the system didn’t want to hurt their feelings?
 

bebe

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They don't have grade 13 in Manitoba, and never did. So much for that theory.

High school needs to prepare students to actually understand what they are doing (it is easy to get lost in the shortcuts of calculus) and also for the large class sizes in university. This is why the hype around class sizes is a joke. Once you hit university, class sizes skyrocket and it comes down to the individual to do the work. High school students are the victim of declining standards and work ethic, with multiple chances to tweak their grades. The system has become a joke, and is amplified in the hard sciences as there is little room for correction.

What we really need are standardized tests to get into university. We can give the tests to the teachers first.
In Ontario they had Grade 13 for us old farts. Grade 13 should be mandated across Canada. Seems so fucked up to send a 17 yo off to Uni these days.

Agreed, the teachers as a whole are weak as fuck and should have standardized testing so should students entering Uni.

The "No one gets left behind" theory is so fucked up as it hurts the strong students. Not sure if they still have it but back in my day High School had 3 streams: Basic, General and Advanced. The ones who took Basic and General could not apply to Uni. Only those who took Advanced could and the stuff we were taught was very different than those taking Basic and General. The system was set up to remove the weed out those who are weak and thats how it should be.
 

bebe

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Can you imagine if someone was so clueless about math wound up gazelling their way thru engineering without competence just because the system didn’t want to hurt their feelings?
I remember my first day at Uni to study Engineering, they gathered us in a big room, they said look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't be here next year!!

They were not wrong, Uni has no problem leaving the weak ones behind.

I have had my P. Eng for decades. Just don't use it anymore.
 

Smallcock

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Jun 5, 2009
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In Ontario they had Grade 13 for us old farts. Grade 13 should be mandated across Canada. Seems so fucked up to send a 17 yo off to Uni these days.

Agreed, the teachers as a whole are weak as fuck and should have standardized testing so should students entering Uni.

The "No one gets left behind" theory is so fucked up as it hurts the strong students. Not sure if they still have it but back in my day High School had 3 streams: Basic, General and Advanced. The ones who took Basic and General could not apply to Uni. Only those who took Advanced could and the stuff we were taught was very different than those taking Basic and General. The system was set up to remove the weed out those who are weak and thats how it should be.
Ontario was the only province that had grade 13 which put students in Ontario behind everyone in the country and in the rest of the world by one year; a full year of life, work, experience that they can never get back because they had to sit in school while everyone else got ahead. Calculus can be taught without having grade 13. It's worked well everywhere outside of Ontario for a century.
 

bebe

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Ontario was the only province that had grade 13 which put students in Ontario behind everyone in the country and in the rest of the world by one year; a full year of life, work, experience that they can never get back because they had to sit in school while everyone else got ahead. Calculus can be taught without having grade 13. It's worked well everywhere outside of Ontario for a century.
I don't think entering the work force one year early makes a difference. If I work 40, 45 or 50 years in the work force, my skill set is the same as long as my mental capacity remains the same. Nowadays too many old farts hang around because the money is too good which prevents the younger ones from moving up.

One year behind the rest of the world... I know of other Countries that teach Uni level Calculus to kids when they are 16. Canada is more like 3 years behind because they don't push at all. We are lazy as fuck.

Canada needs to revamp its Education system
 

|2 /-\ | /|/

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I remember my first day at Uni to study Engineering, they gathered us in a big room, they said look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't be here next year!!

They were not wrong, Uni has no problem leaving the weak ones behind.

I have had my P. Eng for decades. Just don't use it anymore.
Yup, I heard that one from the 1st year calculus professor about look to the left and right. The first exam we had the class average was a failure and he was so brutal to the class even comparing our class to the titanic lmfao The next class literally more then half the students dropped out and was evident due to all the empty seats. I agree it’s good that they are tough and honest to prevent the fluff from making through.
 

Smallcock

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Jun 5, 2009
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Yes I agree with a revamp. A friend of mine teachers high school calculus. The overseas Asians in his classes come in knowing everything he's teaching. They're leagues above Canadian born students.

But our educational system is so poor because those in charge (including parents) are fixated on feelings and making everybody believe they're equal rather than competence and results. I don't foresee any improvements.
 

bebe

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Aug 17, 2001
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We have to be so inclusive, we need to include the stupid ones too!! LOL

But how can we change the system? From the outside it seems simple, just make the changes. We already spend billions on education, bet the cost would be minimal to improve things. The weak students will get left behind, not everyone should go to Uni.
 

Eagleeyes

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Aug 25, 2017
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The never should have eliminated grade 13. This is the best time to start learning Calculus, before they go to Uni.

Shit I had to study math for 3 year at Uni Level to get my degree. Each year the shit got harder and harder. Calculus was just the basic requirement.
Agreed
 

Mable

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Sep 20, 2004
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But how can we change the system? From the outside it seems simple, just make the changes. We already spend billions on education, bet the cost would be minimal to improve things. The weak students will get left behind, not everyone should go to Uni.
It is clear that the policies are not working well, surprise, surprise. Will the "elites" change said policies? No.
 

MissCroft

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Feb 23, 2004
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I did grade 13/OAC. I think it is good practice for university because you have to do a lot of independent projects.
 

HungSowel

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Mar 3, 2017
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To be fair, Calculus is hard the first time you run into it. In prior maths you could rely on memorization and regurgitation and ace everything, but Calculus requires you to develop that part of the brain that can visualize the process of integration over an area and plotting out the slope of a curve.

As an engineer, developing that part of the brain was worthwhile as I can run thought experiments in my mind to evaluate new ideas. Thought experiments are the cheapest, fastest, and safest, type of experiments to run.
 

james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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I also feel that eliminating Grade 13 was a huge mistake.

Grade 13 for me (which was its own dedicated school, no Grade 9, 10, 11 or 12) was very worthwhile. Where I went to school, High School only went up to Grade 12 and Grade 13 required you to leave your comfort zone and to be thrown in a new academic environment. All those goofy cliques from High School fell by the wayside because none of us knew who these other kids were and the curriculum was geared only towards those wanting to go to university. It was in Grade 13 that I had my first exposure to calculus. Of the maths that I studied in Grade 13 (there were 3 of them), calculus was the middle of the road in terms of complexity or difficulty. Algebra was (by far) the most difficult subject to grasp.

First year university, well, there were many different levels of calculus to be studied. From a virtual repeat of (or even less) than what I studied in Grade 13, on up through the Natural Sciences, all the way to Engineering calculus, which was the most challenging, but again, not the most challenging of the first year math courses. That honour still fell to Algebra and Applied Mathematics. As time progressed, the natural sciences mathematics and some engineering mathematics courses became off the charts complex. More like philosophy instead of math. Laplace Transforms, Quantum Mechanics, Partial Differential equations to name but a few. As it got more involved, I began to struggle for the first time in my life with mathematics. The pace of learning became absolutely intense. When I hear people talking about math, I always wonder at what level are they referring to? The commerce students at university used to have to study calculus, but it wasn't even in the same ball park those studying pure and applied mathematics of the higher order.
 

Captain Bly

Nautical Nasty
Feb 9, 2002
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In England I did Calculus for ‘O’ Level when I was 15-16! Set me up for ‘A’ Level Pure Maths and 2 years at University. Properly taught it’s not that difficult, I think the name frightens the current generation.
 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Calculus was not in the O level syllabus of mathematics
in my days. Calculus was taught to students taking additional
pure mathematics. I seem to remember there was no O'level
exam on the subject. A level mathematics were way more
rigorous than 1st year mathematics courses here in North
American universities.
 

OldCummer

New member
May 14, 2019
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I remember my first day at Uni to study Engineering, they gathered us in a big room, they said look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't be here next year!!

They were not wrong, Uni has no problem leaving the weak ones behind.

I have had my P. Eng for decades. Just don't use it anymore.
Haha, yep, I think we were in the same room.
 
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