why the minimum wage is bad

[homerjsimpson]

Presumably employers aren't going to overpay, so as the minimum wage climbs, the minimum available job becomes higher skill. It presumably means a switch from more manual to more automated work, and a corresponding shift to slightly higher skilled workers to operate the machinery. Think of how automated a McDonald's is these days--a single worker performs a greater variety of tasks now, thanks to all that automation, and thus requires more training.

(In the short term they may just overpay for the minimum job rather than adapt their processes but in the longer term they should seek to maximize efficiency.)

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time imagining it in practical terms. You take my local grocery store where I'm sure half the employees are on minimum wage. If I owned that store and suddenly had to pay them all more money... I don't see how I could automate anything or require them to get a higher education to do the same thing they were doing before.

Well at least you were realistic enough to allow for the possibility. Nothing about business gives it a monopoly on good sense or intelligence. The example of a whole flock of shippers establishing their plants where the infrastructure was good but predictably exhausting the labour pool, and then imagining they were competing by holding the line on wages no one was willing to work for was a beaut. Neither sensible nor intelligent.

But let the government dictate an 'anti-business' field leveller like a minimum wage they'd all have to pay that was high enough to attract workers and they'd be chuckling quietly back to the bank, even if publicly they were mouthing doctrinaire fairy-tales like your 'business knows better'. In many cases perhaps—there are more businesses after all—but there are also more bankrupt businesses than governments. No natural law says businessman=smart. The silly folks who do keep leaving out necessary adjectives like 'smart', 'good' or most importantly 'successful'.

In a free market businesses become smart or they fail. The survivors know their stuff. The idiots fail and are gone. It's the nature of the free market. So yeah, in most cases businesses do know better.

 

[fuji]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time imagining it in practical terms. You take my local grocery store where I'm sure half the employees are on minimum wage. If I owned that store and suddenly had to pay them all more money... I don't see how I could automate anything or require them to get a higher education to do the same thing they were doing before.

You haven't seen the rollout of automated inventory control and self checkout in grocery stores?

I am not saying this stuff is rocket surgery, we are still talking $10.25/hr here, but the moment your employees have to receive training on how to use inventory systems they need at least basic literacy.

I guarantee you that your local grocery store uses automation to employ fewer people than twenty years ago, and as a result the people they have now do more varied jobs.

 

[msog87]

The Ontario Employment Standards Act regulates employment relationships. Interns are generally considered to be employees, and must be paid at least the Ontario minimum wage (generally $10.25 per hour).

yeah, the govt should repeal that act. Now you can;t even land in internship bc its illegal....the govt needs to gtfo!

 

[fuji]

Just hire engineers, they are exempt from the minimum wage so you can still pay them $1/hr to bag groceries.

 

[JohnLarue]

Well at least you were realistic enough to allow for the possibility. Nothing about business gives it a monopoly on good sense or intelligence. The example of a whole flock of shippers establishing their plants where the infrastructure was good but predictably exhausting the labour pool, and then imagining they were competing by holding the line on wages no one was willing to work for was a beaut. Neither sensible nor intelligent.

But let the government dictate an 'anti-business' field leveller like a minimum wage they'd all have to pay that was high enough to attract workers and they'd be chuckling quietly back to the bank, even if publicly they were mouthing doctrinaire fairy-tales like your 'business knows better'. In many cases perhaps—there are more businesses after all—but there are also more bankrupt businesses than governments. No natural law says businessman=smart. The silly folks who do keep leaving out necessary adjectives like 'smart', 'good' or most importantly 'successful'.

You should consider taking a "writing for business" course
They will teach you to express your points in a clear and concise manner, which the reader can quickly review and understand
I always have to read your posts twice and often still do not understand what your point is
I will not read them a third time.

After making a guess that you think governments make better decisions than business, I would remind you:
Business leaders strive for long term sustainable profits and growth and usually have "skin in the game" while politicians strive to get re-elected and answer to special interest / lobby groups who fund them with strings attached

Re: more bankrupt companies than governments ?

Perhaps that is the consequence of the governments ability to raise taxes or print money as opposed to superior decision making ability.

Personally I would trust the advice of a group of people who have run fortune 500 companies far more than the morons who tuned Europe into a financial basketcase or anyone associated with the NDP

 

[JohnLarue]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time imagining it in practical terms. You take my local grocery store where I'm sure half the employees are on minimum wage. If I owned that store and suddenly had to pay them all more money... I don't see how I could automate anything or require them to get a higher education to do the same thing they were doing before.
In a free market businesses become smart or they fail. The survivors know their stuff. The idiots fail and are gone. It's the nature of the free market. So yeah, in most cases businesses do know better.

While I can not speak to wages small independent grocers pay, the majority of grocery stores in Canada are run by Loblaw, Metro Sobeys or Safeway.
I know Loblaw is unionized (UFCW Canada) and I believe the others are as well. Minimum wage will not be an issue, probably closer to $20-$25/hr.
I suspect the independents will also be far above minimum wage. Not bad for stacking apples and cans & collecting buggies from the parking lot
This has to be difficult for the independents to compete given the very thin margins on food products and the labor intensive nature of the operations

Perhaps someone else can add clarity wrt wages in the grocery industry

 

[fuji]

Business leaders strive for long term sustainable profits

Problem is they think eight quarters is long term. I know, I am involved in creating the "long term strategic roadmap" at the firm I work for--that is what we call our two year plan. Our C suite might (might) be thinking about five years but I actually doubt it.

I realize this is a little industry specific, resource extraction projects can take years to become operational, but how good is planning there really, and how aligned with the interests of the nation? They are profit maximizing against forecasted oil prices five years out that are routinely wrong by an order of magnitude.

You have never recognized that we have markets where the incentives are only somewhat related to the good of society. Too much havok has been wrought by business leaders trying to earn a bonus without thinking about the twenty or fifty year horizon.

 

[FAST]

Waste of band width

You should consider taking a "writing for business" course
They will teach you to express your points in a clear and concise manner, which the reader can quickly review and understand
I always have to read your posts twice and often still do not understand what your point is
I will not read them a third time.

After making a guess that you think governments make better decisions than business, I would remind you:
Business leaders strive for long term sustainable profits and growth and usually have "skin in the game" while politicians strive to get re-elected and answer to special interest / lobby groups who fund them with strings attached

Re: more bankrupt companies than governments ?

Perhaps that is the consequence of the governments ability to raise taxes or print money as opposed to superior decision making ability.

Personally I would trust the advice of a group of people who have run fortune 500 companies far more than the morons who tuned Europe into a financial basketcase or anyone associated with the NDP

JOHN,...I gave up on the "philosopher" a loong time ago,...not worth the effort.

FAST

 

[benstt]

Problem is they think eight quarters is long term. I know, I am involved in creating the "long term strategic roadmap" at the firm I work for--that is what we call our two year plan. Our C suite might (might) be thinking about five years but I actually doubt it.

Bang on.

 

[JohnLarue]

JOHN,...I gave up on the "philosopher" a loong time ago,...not worth the effort.

FAST

That's funny
Unfortunately a real "philosopher" usually has something profound to offer.
In Old Jones case, the depth of his thinking is dependant upon whether he is standing or sitting.

Ever single one of his posts is a convoluted mix mash of inconsistent and often conflicting points without a clear logical flow or a clear conclusion.
He puts far too much effort into his composition, only to have the readers scratch their head and ask "WTF does that mean?"

 

[JohnLarue]

Bang on.

Perhaps if Fuji moves up to the Board of Directors level he will gain some insight about how two year plans fit into the real long term plan for an organiation

 

[fuji]

Perhaps if Fuji moves up to the Board of Directors level he will gain some insight about how two year plans fit into the real long term plan for an organiation

Or maybe you could actually just admit the point -- corporations DO NOT engage in long-term planning. They use the phrase "long-term" to describe planning on a 2 to 5 year horizon, which is effectively short-term planning if you are in government. No corporation on this planet has a plan out 20 to 50 years. Only government engages in planning over that length of time.

 

[buttercup]

I was in S.America on a mining job. Labour was cheap. So cheap that it was worth it to pay local guys to stand in front of pressure gauges all day, and to go and tell the chargehand when the needle went over the mark. The money the guys could earn was strictly limited -- by the cost of an automated pressure regulator. There was no minimum wage, but if there had been, their job could never pay more than the cost of automating their job. Same applies to most jobs.

Your real job security is to be paid less than it costs to get rid of you.

 

[oldjones]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time imagining it in practical terms. You take my local grocery store where I'm sure half the employees are on minimum wage. If I owned that store and suddenly had to pay them all more money... I don't see how I could automate anything or require them to get a higher education to do the same thing they were doing before.

In the context we're considering—a legislated minimum wage—your position relative to your competitors would be exactly the same the moment after the minimumwage took effect as it was the moment before. As a smart, knowledgeable and canny business owner who knows better than government, you would adjust, and continue to compete on the same level playing field as before.

In a free market businesses become smart or they fail. The survivors know their stuff. The idiots fail and are gone. It's the nature of the free market. So yeah, in most cases businesses do know better.

Of course the only free market that most of us have any contact with is illegal drugs. All others I can think of are quite thoroughly regulated so that weights, measures, terms and means of payment and contract, warranty of goods, fair practice, labour and health standards are in accordance with what our society expects and will tolerate. Not that businesses don't constantly push the envelope with unconscionable practices that result in new regulations (think airline 'prices' that buy you precisely nothing if you don't also pay the same or more in surcharges, fees, taxes and other costs, because truth in pricing has never ever been profitable)

We've already covered you not being an idiot as a business owner and being too foolish to adapt to a minimum wage.