Why are the Israel/Hamas casualties so lopsided?

basketcase

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This one deserves a post of its own.

and under forceful British rule settled and grab the land where arabs were living
Under the British Mandate and under the Ottomans, Jews LEGALLY bought land from their Arab owners, often the same Arabs who were using the issue of Jews to build their personal power.


If you actually want to honestly discuss history (which based on your repeated use of emotionally loaded terms I doubt) Ottoman society was essentially feudal with land owners holding massive tracts occupied by tenant farmers. Much of the land sold was vacant waste land but when it was occupied, the land sale made the leases was no longer valid and the tenants were told to leave. The hypocrisy is that the same Arabs notables who sold the land without providing for their tenants pocketed their profits then turned around and told the tenants that the Jews stole their land.
 

basketcase

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Who is talking about Arabs?

We are talking about the Palestinian refugees, as identified by the UNRWA.
You are as usual full of it. UNRWA defines refugees as people who fled their homes. They do not include descendents as refugees though they continue to provide services for them since the Host countries refuse.

Who are Palestine refugees?

Palestine refugees are defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”

UNRWA services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of Palestine refugee males, including adopted children, are also eligible for registration.

http://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

Straight from the horses mouth, the UN differentiates between actual refugees and the unserviced descendents.


(also notice that women aren't given equal rights even here)
 

fuji

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Who is talking about Arabs?

We are talking about the Palestinian refugees, as identified by the UNRWA.
They aren't Arabs? And the ones in Syria weren't born there?

You are a joke.

Being on the UNRWA dole does not entitle an Arab born in Syria to immigrate to Israel.
 

fuji

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The fact that YOU are trying to say that they lives in their homes in cities built in desert and later having to live in TENTS with no water and electricity in desert is the same is absolutely idiotic on your part.
You know that Israel tried to build homes for them, and that the PLO objected, right? The PLO did not want them to be considered settled so it opposed building any permanent home for them.

PLO actually grieved it all the way to the UN and got a resolution passed telling Israel to stop building homes for them. These are the ones in occupied Palestine, you would have to ask the Lebanese and Syrians why Palestinians there live in such abusive conditions.
 

basketcase

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Israel tried to build homes for Palestinian refugees who live in Gaza and West bank who live in tents!!!!!????? ...
Who lives in tents? Maybe they did in 1950 but these days, the refugee camps are busy cities and towns. You also miss that between 1949 and 1967, the West Bank was a part of Jordan and Gaza was controlled by Egypt.
 

basketcase

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...As I said they should be allowed back to Israel and build their own homes.
According to the UN, only the people who fled in 1948/1949 are refugees; their children and grandchildren are not.

Do you also think the descendents of Jews who fled their homes in Arab lands should be given citizenship and their property back in Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, ...?
 

basketcase

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The fact that YOU are trying to say that they lived in their homes in cities built in desert and later having to live in TENTS with no water and electricity in desert is the same is absolutely idiotic on your part.
Not as idiotic as your claim that Israel forced the Palestinians to live in deserts.

Israel built houses for the refugees that came to their country. The Arab states did not.


p.s. if you look at the numbers, there were 711,000 Palestinian refugees who fled Israel for Arab lands and around 600,000 who fled Arab homes for Israel (and another 200,000 who went elsewhere). Is there a reason you suggest 'rights' for only one of those groups?
 

fuji

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Israel tried to build homes for Palestinian refugees who live in Gaza and West bank who live in tents!!!!!?????
Yes. They actually built some homes and started to move some of the refugees into them. Then the PLO did two things -- it started carrying out reprisals against anyone who moved into a home, and it grieved to the UN and got a resolution passed demanding that the home building stop.

Settling the Palestinians in homes and giving them decent, normal lives undercut their propaganda value.

Some discussion of it here (repair the URL, terb oddness): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She ikh_Radwan#Modern_era
 

fuji

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1- Freedom of religion and expression: There are reports of evangelical missionaries deported from Israel because the Israeli law forbids Proselytizing.
On the other hand Israel has greater respect for religious law than other Western countries, and allows each religion to handle its own family law issues. The proselytizing thing is a good idea in a place where people frequently go to war over religion, it prevents riots. Otherwise you'd have all the wackos out trying to convert each other and getting into fist fights over it.

2-Civil law: A jewish person cannot marry a non jew , because there is no such thing as civil marriage in Israel.
This actually impacts Jews much more than Muslims. It also makes it hard for Jews of different denomination to get married to one another. Though Israel will happily recognize the marriage if it is performed somewhere else -- it's a byproduct of having delegated family law to religious authorities that the state doesn't have its own marriage system outside the religious systems.

3-Gay rights: Have you seen anti gay riots in Jerusalem few years because LGBT community wanted to organize a gay parade ? There is a huge Gay parade every year in Istanbul where the population is predominately Muslim and there are no clashes like in Jerusalem.
And yet gays do have rights within Israel, and not in any of the neighbouring ARab countries.

Also there is one arab country on the right tracks to become democracy but medias focus more on other unstable arab countries and don't talk much about that country: Tunisia where the arab spring started, it didn't turn into another military dictatorship like Egypt or civil war and chaos like Syria/Lybia.
I agree that Tunisia is on the right track and hopefully over time becomes as tolerant and inclusive as Israel. Egypt was also on that track for awhile but it got derailed.

And I certainly agree that a democratic Arab nation is a possibility -- there just aren't any right now. All the countries around Israel are nasty brutal dictatorships, unfortunately now including Egypt again.
 

fuji

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In the 1930s most land was bought from small landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, "52.6% of the lands were bought from big non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian-Arab landowners and only 9.4% from the Fellahin".[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
Are you making some claim that the land purchases were somehow invalid, or are you agreeing that the Jews did lawfully purchase their land?

Also you can read here about Palestinians who left their homes during 1948, obviously they didn't sell their land:
Once the war between the Israelis and the Palestinians is over they certainly should receive compensation for their lost land. As should the Jews who had land confiscated by Iraq, etc., but nobody ever talks about that.

However, the property issues has nothing to do with immigration status of their descendants. Property rights can be inherited from your parents. Citizenship cannot.
 

fuji

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the link takes me to **********h Radwan!!!!. I will do some research.
Yeah, if you read that page there's a section there under "Modern Era" about Israel's attempt to build houses for the Palestinian refugees and move them out of the camps. The PLO/UNRWA opposed it with their ideological position that a Palestinian shouldn't leave the camp unless they go back to destroy Israel. Obviously that isn't going to happen. In the meantime it is the PLO that blocks them from leaving the camps and living in nice houses. The PLO also blocks Palestinians from leaving the camps in Lebanon and Syria.

In Jordan on the other hand the Jordanian government told the PLO to go fuck itself and gave the Palestinians citizenship, so that they can lead normal lives, hold down jobs, and such. There's a lot of discrimination against Palestinians in Jordan, but at least it's not as bad as places where the PLO exists.

(Jordan violently expelled the PLO from the country which is why it's better for the Palestinians there.)
 

basketcase

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1- Freedom of religion and expression: There are reports of evangelical missionaries deported from Israel because the Israeli law forbids Proselytizing.
I've never heard of that. Can you provide these reports?

And in the meanwhile, you haven't responded to the fact that the biggest restriction of religion is Israel is preventing Jews from prayer at certain places or times in respect of the feelings of Muslims. The fact that Israel banns Jewish prayer at Judaism's holiest site and in fact gave control of that site to a Muslim group speaks to Israel's respect of different religions.
2-Civil law: A jewish person cannot marry a non jew , because there is no such thing as civil marriage in Israel.
Yes that is a flaw in their system but is not about apartheid, racism or anything else. In fact, if a clergy member is willing to consecrate a mixed wedding in Israel they may and it is recognized (yes, Israel does not force clergy to marry people if it violates their religious conscious. Israel does recognize weddings conducted elsewhere so a marriage between a Muslim Israeli an a Jewish Israeli or a Christian Israeli will be recognized. Before this round of conflict I also recall Israel discussing changing their laws and allowing civil marriage.

3-Gay rights: Have you seen anti gay riots in Jerusalem few years because LGBT community wanted to organize a gay parade ? There is a huge Gay parade every year in Istanbul where the population is predominately Muslim and there are no clashes like in Jerusalem.
Yep, Istanbul has a pride parade (Turkic Muslims, not Arabs BTW) yet Tel Aviv has the largest Pride event in Asia. Of course we could discuss the Arab world and their version of LGTB rights. The fact that Israel has accepted Palestinian refugees who fled because of their sexual preference says a lot.
 

basketcase

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The first settlers didn't pruchase land from arabs but purchased from British who occupied that land and took it from arabs.
...

You are 100% wrong on that one. Here's quotes from 3 different historians, 1 Palestinian, 1 pro-Israel Israeli, and 1 Israeli quoted and criticized by both extremes that show you have no clue what you are talking about.

And yes, these three books are books I have and have read.

Under the Ottomans

buying land occasionally required "stratagems" since the Ottoman authorities were generally ill disposed toward Jewish land acquisition. But the purchase of Palestine proceeded at a snail's pace. And it was not mainly a problem of an effendi reluctance to sell. Most of the world's Jews were non-Zionists, and most, simply, were poor, especially in the Zionist movement's Eastern European heartland. And the rich, concentrated in Central and Western Europe, by and large refused to help. So, gathering a ruble here and a ruble there, the initially uncoordinated Zionist associations-Hovevei Zion, or Lovers of Zion-bought the odd tract of land for settlement and then sent out small groups of individuals or families to fulfill the dream.

Prof. Benny Morris. 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War (Kindle Locations 85-89). Kindle Edition.

However, Istanbul, while periodically issuing restrictive orders, never effectively clamped down on Jewish immigration, land purchases, and settlement.

Prof. Benny Morris. 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War (Kindle Location 142). Kindle Edition.

The authorities upheld the purchase, Fula was evacuated, and within months, a Jewish settlement, Merhavia, took root on the site.

Prof. Benny Morris. 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War (Kindle Location 165). Kindle Edition.

Under the Brits

Throughout the Mandate, the leading Arab families, including Husseinis and Opposition figures, sold land to the Zionists, despite their nationalist professions. Jewish landholding increased between 1920 and 1947 from about 456,000 dunams to about 1.4 million dunams. The main brake on Jewish land purchases, at least during the 19206 and 1930s, was lack of funds, not any Arab indisposition to sell.'9 Moreover, hundreds of Arabs collaborated with the Zionist intelligence agencies.20

Prof. Benny Morris. 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War (Kindle Locations 249-251). Kindle Edition.

Particularly striking was the abrupt transformation of Hussein Khalidi, scion of a distinguished family.... “The Jews have come to the country, have taken its citizenship and have become Palestinians, and it is impossible to throw them into the

Karsh, Efraim (2010-08-20). Palestine Betrayed (Kindle Locations 698-702). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.
[Note, This Khalidi is a relative of the Palestinian historian Rashid Khalidi - next quote]

As with the touchy issue of land sales by Arab landlords to Zionist land- purchase agencies or to individual Jewish buyers, all concerned carefully wreathed these activities in secrecy, with multiple intermediaries sometimes involved.

Khalidi, Rashid (2006-09-01). The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood (Kindle Locations 1875-1877). Beacon Press. Kindle Edition. ]

To take a parallel issue of similar sensitivity, Zionist sources reported land purchases in terms of the original seller and the final ownership of a piece of property. It is not clear from these sources whether these sales took place in an active market for land, such that a given piece of land may have passed through several hands before ending up in Zionist ownership.25 Similarly, it is not always clear whether the middlemen who were frequently involved were so well disguised that sellers might have had no idea to whom their property was ultimately being ceded. On the other hand, in many cases the only possible purchasers were Zionist organizations, or sellers

Khalidi, Rashid (2006-09-01). The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood (Kindle Locations 1888-1893). Beacon Press. Kindle Edition.
 

basketcase

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...
Because under that system, a citizen cannot be defined outside of his religious community and also conversion and mixed marriages are illegal same in Israel where proselytizing and mixed mariages ( jew with non jew) are illegal.... .
As I said, once again you are completely wrong. Mixed marriages in Israel are legal if a clergy member is willing to officiate or if they are married overseas. This also includes same sex marriages.

According to this article (dated but I'm sure still similar numbers exist) 10% of marriages in Israel are mixed.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3362030,00.html

Definitely an area for improvement but far far better than the rest of the region.
 

basketcase

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Here you go this is an article from Haaretz , an Israeli newspaper about a german student deported for proselytizing .....
Interesting case. It may mean that Israel isn't happy about foreigners proselytizing but it may simply mean the part of the article you ignored is true.

The Interior Ministry insists that Ludwig is not being persecuted for her religious faith.
"The above has been in Israel for five years illegally, and that is the basis for the demand that she leave the country," Interior Ministry spokeswoman Haddad said. "Ms. Ludwig has been asked a number of times to leave the country and arrange her status, but she prefered to ignore the Interior Ministry's requests and continued to break the law.

"In light of the above, we see no fault with the way the issue was handled so far. On the contrary, we are surprised that the lady was a student at an official institution in the state of Israel while defined as an illegal resident," Haddad added.
 

basketcase

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Here you go. You can read here that more than half of the land was purchased from non-palestinians:


In the 1930s most land was bought from small landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, "52.6% of the lands were bought from big non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian-Arab landowners and only 9.4% from the Fellahin".[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

...
So you admit that Jews legally bought land from their previous land owners. Thanks for conceding the point.

Yes the Fellahin were often screwed by they were residents and tenants on the land, not the owners.
 

basketcase

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I will read them thanks. I am confused to be honest. I am no historian or expert in middle east but it is so hard to know what the truth is because they are so many contradictory writings all over.
See the 3 historians I quoted. They represent a wide spectrum politically from very pro-Palestinian to very pro-Israeli yet all three agree that Arabs were selling land to Jews.
 

basketcase

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No the article says that only a minority of land was purchased from palestinians , more than half was purchased form non-Palestinians . Also it says that the land purchased from non-palestinians was larger, so the territory obtained form the latter was even bigger. Fellahin were a minority.
You really miss the whole sense of what is going on. Under the Ottomans, there was the Palestinians, merely Arabs who had residences or property in Palestine (of course Ottoman Palestine was far larger than current Israel). Yes, many of the Arabs notables had property in Nablus, Jaffa, Damascus, and Mecca but it was their land that they legally owned and land they legally sold to Jews.

Just because the Fellahin were tenants on land for generations does not give them legal title. Historians of all stripes agree that Jews legally bought land.


And just to remind you of the bullshit you were trying to pull, here's your quote
The first settlers didn't pruchase land from arabs but purchased from British who occupied that land and took it from arabs.
Patently untrue as attested to by the historians I quoted (and you ignored).
 

fuji

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It was good for its time as it offered more religious freedom compared to Europe where jews were persecuted and some of them fled to Ottoman empire where they can practice their religion freely.
That is a pretty ludicrous spin. Jews were extensively persecuted in the ottoman empire. They went there because Israel was there, as part of the Zionist project.

But you cannot call it a modern civil and secular system.
It isn't meant to be a secular system. It is meant to be a system which allows religious people to live in better accord with their faith, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jew. As such it has different strengths and weaknesses from a secular system.

To say that it has less religious freedom by cherry picking it's weaknesses, like cross faith marriage, is misleading. It offers greater freedom to the majority who live within one faith.

The cross faith marriage issue will be fixed eventually. And to portray it as discrimination against Muslims is bizarre, it overwhelmingly impacts Jews.

conversion and mixed marriages are illegal
That isn't true. Nothing in Israeli law makes conversion or mixed marriage illegal, there just isn't a bureaucracy to implement them, but lots of people go out of Israel and get married, and the state happily accepts that. It isn't illegal, it is a gap in bureaucracy.

Also there are anti blasphemy laws in Israel like in the arab countries, so I don't call that free expression. So as an atheist I can be prosecuted in Israel because of my anti -religious views .
Israel is a Jewish state with strong respect for minority religions. It is not trying to be a secular state. That is the nice thing about having different democracies, each can find a different formula.

If you prefer a secular country, as I do too, stay in Canada. If you want to live in a Muslim democracy try Malaysia or maybe Tunisia. If you prefer a Jewish one there's Israel.
 
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