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Who Killed the Electric Car

Macator2003

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Deep within the Forest
I thought this may have been discussed on the board a while back but when I did a search, I couldn't find the thread.

A friend of mine lent me the DVD "Who Killed The Electric Car".

I've seen this documentary a total of three times over the last 3 days and the more I watch it, the angrier I get….. at General Motors, at American President George Bush, at CARB (California Air Resources Board) and in particular at Alan C. Lloyd, who was their chairman from 1999-2004.

In 1990, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) adopted automobile emissions standard that were tougher than the federal standards. The tough new regulations were highlighted with the State's Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate, under which 10% of new cars sold in California would have been electric, 10% by 2003. Only electric cars were deemed to have no tailpipe emissions.

It's more than a coincidence that Lloyd became the chairman of the California Fuel Cell Partnership, a consortium of automakers and public agencies that promotes the development of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and infrastructure, four months before the CARB meeting that effectively killed the electric car.

A Hydrogen fuel celled vehicle costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to produce and hydrogen fuel is very expensive and is currently produced using non-renewable fuel sources. A national H2 fueling station infrastructure must be built at an enormous expense before H2 cars are commercially viable. Even those that promote the Hydrogen Fuel Cell admit that the technology that is required is still 15 years away….

In the late 90's, GM had at least a two-year jump on the world's carmakers with its electric car technology. But instead of capitalizing on this lead with hybrids and more electric vehicles, it abandoned its program. Instead, most of the hundreds of electric vehicles that were manufactured were taken off the road and destroyed by carmakers.

GM's electric car, the EV1 was fast. A prototype set the land speed record for electric cars in 1994 at 183 miles an hour. EVI's accelerated to 30 mph in 3 seconds and to 60mph in under 9 seconds. California stars such as Tom Hanks, who leased one of the EV1s raved about the vehicle, how quiet it was, how fast it accelerated. One of the mechanics who regularly checked the vehicles confided that when they were brought it everything would be fine, he'd rotate the tires, fill up the windshield washer and hand the keys back. Their brakes never once wore out, and were used to recharge the batteries (similar to the hybrids).

As the price of a litre of gasoline hits $1.26 and threatens to top $1.40 to $1.50 before the end of summer, I urged everyone of you to either buy, rent, borrow, or upload this documentary. It will certainly be worth your time.


Here are a few of the facts that this documentary "drives" home…..

• A gallon of gas burned by a gas powered automobile adds roughly 19lbs of carbon dioxide to the air.

• One month after buying Hummer from AM General, GM said there is no particular need to continue building the electric car

• Battery electric cars never need any gasoline. They can often get most of their power recharging in the first 2 hours. Most people also charge them overnight, when electricity demand is off-peak and rates lower.

• Combined profits of Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco and Conoca-Phillips in 2003 was 33 Billion, this increase in 2004 to 47 Billion and hit 64 Billion in 2005. One can wonder what it was for 2007…..

• The United States consumes almost 9 million barrels of gasoline daily, which equates to 43% of total global gasoline consumption.

As I've noted, I highly recommend you somehow get this documentary and watch it and do your best to keep this thread alive…….

Please see: http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

Or: http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/index.html
 

C Dick

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Until the utilities can make incremental electricity with clean sources - wind, solar or nuclear, it does not really help the environment much to drive an electric car. Even at night in Ontario incremental electricity comes from burning natural gas, so when you switch to an electric car, you use less gasoline, and instead use natural gas very inefficiently (because transmission and storage is inefficient). The more demand there is for electric cars, the faster it will become economic, but it does not actually help anything until Hydro switch how they make power.

I do not buy the electric car conspiracy theories, they just don't make sense. If GM were way ahead in electric cars now, they would stand to make more money than Hummer ever did. Whining lefties love the idea of a conspiracy between GM, big oil, etc., but it does not fit the facts. In my opinion, the theory that best fits the facts is: GM are often total idiots who make stupid, short-sighted decisions.
 

boffo

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According to 2006 stats U.S. economy consumed an average of 20.7 million barrels per day of crude oil while the average daily world consumption of crude oil per day was 82.5 million barrells.
So, U.S. economy consumed about 25% of world crude oil in 2006. The U.S. economy right now accounts for about 30% of world GDP.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html

By 2007, Global consumption of crude oil increased to 87.1 million barrels per day, largely due to the massive spikes in oil demand from India and China.
http://www.haver.com/COMMENT/070316x.htm
 

Macator2003

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Hey Dick, take a look at the documentary. They have done an excellent job of answering all of the points you've brought up. I was one of the biggest critics of these conspiracy theories BEFORE I saw the movie.

Most, if not all of my concerns and questions were answered. Do you know that even though the remaining patrons of the EV1s offered GM 1.8 Million US to buy the remaining vehicles that were being stock-piled in a factory parking lot, they refused the offer and hired 4 transports to pick them up and take them to an out of state facility where they compacted them.

You don't think the Oil companies had something to do with this. You don't think that they saw these electric vehicles as an ending to their gravy train.... Watch the video, read the book and then get back to me.
 

alexmst

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Alec Guinness was in a movie in 1951 called "The Man in the White Suit" which dealt with an inventor who comes up with a clothing fabric from which a suit can be made that will last forever. Industrialists offer him money for his invention, but only in order to shelve it so it will not see light of day and thus not destroy their current business model.

If someone invented a Star Trek type transporter that beamed cargo instantly between any two points in the world, FedEx and UPS would probably be very interested in buying it to ensure it never saw the light of day/was permanently "in development".
 
Ontario gov MTO don't want to lose the big 3 from our backyard use the excuse to keep Electric cars off our roads. Ontario-build electric & alternative fuel cars deemed unsave for Ontario roads while same vehicle perfectly legal in BC, Calif, & bunch of other US states. From April Sat Star Wheels section.
 
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A.J. Raven

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You really want to open your eyes, watch "The Corporation". Always on Rogers on Demand. Pay special attention to the segment discussing the Exxon Valdez oil spill - thats my favorite. :eek:
 

williemaze

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A.J. Raven said:
You really want to open your eyes, watch "The Corporation". Always on Rogers on Demand. Pay special attention to the segment discussing the Exxon Valdez oil spill - thats my favorite. :eek:
100% great flick.

Another one that opened my eyes as well is Manufactured Landscapes. Give that a whirl.
 

Tangwhich

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C Dick said:
Until the utilities can make incremental electricity with clean sources - wind, solar or nuclear, it does not really help the environment much to drive an electric car. Even at night in Ontario incremental electricity comes from burning natural gas, so when you switch to an electric car, you use less gasoline, and instead use natural gas very inefficiently (because transmission and storage is inefficient). The more demand there is for electric cars, the faster it will become economic, but it does not actually help anything until Hydro switch how they make power.

I do not buy the electric car conspiracy theories, they just don't make sense. If GM were way ahead in electric cars now, they would stand to make more money than Hummer ever did. Whining lefties love the idea of a conspiracy between GM, big oil, etc., but it does not fit the facts. In my opinion, the theory that best fits the facts is: GM are often total idiots who make stupid, short-sighted decisions.
I recently addressed this issue in a recent thread about oil companies. Here's a cut and paste:

tboy said:
But even with electric vehicles, that isn't going to solve all the problems. It just transfers the pollution load to another area. We already hear that we are maxed out with our electricity production so if 2% of the population switches to electric vehicles, we'd again be overloaded and see rolling blackouts or brownouts.
It's much easier to clean and control pollution from one tailpipe (the power plant) than to do it for millions of individual ones. And since electric cars are so much more efficient than gasoline ones, even the dirtiest power plant is considerably cleaner for automobile energy than gasoline.

The power grid issues really are a non issues when considering an electric car infrastructure at this point. Yes, if people are charging cars at 9am and in the early afternoon, it's going to be an issue, but if people are charging their cars overnight, which most people will (for 2 reasons. 1: that's when most people will have their cars at home and 2: because by the time electric cars are common, Ontario will have time of day billing and night time electricity is much cheaper) it's a non issue. Power stations don't shut down in off peak hours. You can't shut down a generator once it's going unless you're planning a lengthy shut down. The amount of available capacity over night is huge.

Also, people will have the option of generating their own "fuel" too. Granted, solar panels and wind turbines are very expensive right now, but in time the prices will come way down. It's quite possible that people will be able to charge their cars entirely from free energy in the not too distant future.
 

Tangwhich

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goodtime said:
Ontario-build electric & alternative fuel cars deemed unsave for Ontario roads while same vehicle perfectly legal in BC, Calif, & bunch of other US states. From April Sat Star Wheels section.
While I agree that we should allow these on the road, I want to point out that these vehicles are Neighbourhood Electric Vehicles and only go around a maximum of 55 km/h. As much as I want to own an electric car, I would find this vehicle completely impractical as I could only drive it on residential streets.
 

onthebottom

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Economics?

OTB
 

Macator2003

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Tangwhich said:
While I agree that we should allow these on the road, I want to point out that these vehicles are Neighbourhood Electric Vehicles and only go around a maximum of 55 km/h. As much as I want to own an electric car, I would find this vehicle completely impractical as I could only drive it on residential streets.
While I agree with the post immediately in front of this one Tangwhich, the above statement is incorrect.

The GM EV1 was commercially released in 1996 with an underperforming lead-acid battery that powered the car only 60-80 miles to a charge. According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, Americans drive an average of 29 miles a day. But the range of the first generation of EV1s was still seen as inadequate and impractical for many drivers, and led analysts and the public to dismiss the technology.

Two years later, the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery, developed by Stanford R. Ovshinsky’s Ovonics battery company, was used in second-generation EV1s. With the NiMH battery, the EV1 was able to travel 100-120 miles per charge.

In 1994 GM had already acquired a 60% interest in the Ovonics, and could have adopted these powerful NiMH batteries more quickly, given the demonstrated performance of NiMH batteries in prototype electric vehicles.

In regard to your statement about them only going a maximum of 55 mph, I guess you are referring to their maximum speed within the first 8 seconds. They can attain a speed of 60 mph within 9 seconds.....
 

Tangwhich

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Macator,

I'm not talking about the EV1 and the other cars released in California during that time. Believe me, I'm big into electric cars, I know all about the pros and cons of them. In my posting I quoted goodtime and what he said about cars built in Canada that can only be driven in BC and some states. For example the ZENN which is built in Montreal. There are other NEVs too which to what I believe goodtime was refering to.

The ZENN was featured in Rick Mercer:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c
 

preciate it

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Mar 15, 2007
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Help....

I'm trying to remember the name of a book on the subject of big oil and electric cars which was released about two three years ago. A big tome which opened with a chapter about Edison and Ford, who planned to build electric cars together until Edison's battery plant was destroyed in an act of arson.

Anyone remember the name? It had a foreward which told you to read the book from beginning to end, and not to dip into each chapter ahead of time...
 

rick dickulous

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Jan 4, 2006
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I saw Who KIlled The Electric Car as well

The thing that really struck me about that movie was a half minute shot of stacked up electric trolley cars in a junk yard. In the 50's and 60's GM bought up all the electric trolley cars in the US and destroyed them. All of them. This has to rank as one of the greatest environmental atrocities of all time! This is not just mere stupidity that motivated these scum bags, it's evil.

How many billions of tons of CO2 would have stayed out of the atmosphere if GM hadn't performed such a flagrantly psychopathic attack against planet Earth? How many people would not have died of cancer? It's time we stopped excusing the acts of these evil inhumans and fought back. Take a look here:

http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/2008/01/care-and-feeding-of-practical.html

I have no sympathy at all for GM and their inevitable collapse. How much you wanna bet that just before GM goes bankrupt the Board of Directors votes to have the entire employee pension plan paid over to themselves? It wouldn't be the first time.

We humans and the psychopaths who destroy our world are locked in an eternal war. Time to wake up and start fighting.
 

xarir

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Aug 20, 2001
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You have to remember that the 1950s followed the 1940s. By that I mean the world in general had just emerged from a period of absolute lunacy; can you imagine our world today when the industrial might of nations is 100% devoted to making war? That's the 1940s for you. So in the 1950s people wanted to be free of all that and just do whatever the hell they wanted to. Fair enough - if it was me I'd probably be the same way.

But the 1950s was also a period of broad innocence and ignorance. The environment wasn't something people would have given even a moment's thought. DDT was widely used, thalidomide was probably being developed as the future wonder drug, cars didn't have seat belts, drinking & driving was probably quite normal ... So buying electric trolleys to kill them in the wrecking yard would have been a normal process back then.

What bothers me today though is that people are generally smarter. I think the majority of people out there give the environment at least a passing though if not serious consideration. So now is the time to seriously investigate alternative means of propulsion / transportation.

As others have pointed out, electric cars are a start but not a solution. After all, electricity has to come from somewhere. But manufacturing and distributing gasoline undoubtedly yields an impactful carbon footprint so by using electric cars, at least we can reduce / eliminate the footprint of using gasoline. Then we can work on ways to reduce the footprint of producing electricity.

Within the next 2 - 4 years I'll likely get a new car. I would very much like for it to be zero emission, but there's a reality that it likely won't be. At minimum I'll get diesel if I can (the new "blue" diesels seem good on emissions and on mileage). But I would really like to get hybrid or electric / fuel cell if I could.
 

Macator2003

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xarir said:
As others have pointed out, electric cars are a start but not a solution. After all, electricity has to come from somewhere. But manufacturing and distributing gasoline undoubtedly yields an impactful carbon footprint so by using electric cars, at least we can reduce / eliminate the footprint of using gasoline. Then we can work on ways to reduce the footprint of producing electricity.

Within the next 2 - 4 years I'll likely get a new car. I would very much like for it to be zero emission, but there's a reality that it likely won't be. At minimum I'll get diesel if I can (the new "blue" diesels seem good on emissions and on mileage). But I would really like to get hybrid or electric / fuel cell if I could.
I agree with everything that you've said Xarir. Hopefully within the next 2-4 years, you'll have a "Plug in Hybrid" (PHEV) as an option to choose from.

Plug-in hybrids are conversions of production hybrid cars that add a more powerful battery that can be charged by plugging in to the electrical grid.
It's like any normal hybrid, but with two important differences. It has a larger battery capacity and is able to plug in to the electrical grid to charge the batteries. Instead of a battery with a capacity of about 1 kWh of power like an ordinary hybrid, these batteries will have a capacity of 9-10 kWh of power. This will enable the PHEV to drive like a fully electric vehicle for up to 40 miles before the gas engine kicks in.

Your gas mileage could improve to several hundred miles per gallon, plus electricity. If you had a PHEV with a 40-mile range in EV mode, and you rarely drove over 40 miles without charging, then you would almost never need gas. If for some reason, you forgot to plug in your PHEV or there was a power outage that lasted the night (happens once every twenty or so years), you'd have the gas motor to reply on......
 

Tangwhich

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GM are developing a car called the Chevrolet Volt. Unlike a plug in hybrid, it will be a pure electric car that has a gas engine as a generator for longer trips (should get a good 65km before it needs to kick in). IMO, it's a far better technology than a true hybrid. It's set to be released in late 2010 and so far development has been going well and everything is on track.

You can follow it here:

http://www.gm-volt.com
 
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