When Should I Upgrade My System?

[Keebler Elf]

Keebler, think you better take some advice from tboy and us.

Have read your posts regarding computers and you need to learn a bit more.
No offence intended, but the more you read and practice, the better you get and understand.

Uhh, isn't that exactly what I'm doing?

Sheesh, what's with all the attitude...

 

[Keebler Elf]

and yeah, your memory isn't being reported properly, I'll look into the manual and see if it has specs on what modules you can use. I bet you either can't use 2 512 and 2 256 together

It's not the RAM, it's my math.

My system recognizes all of it.

 

[Keebler Elf]

So let's see, a new socket 478 processor (if possible), a video card, and maybe some more RAM? And maybe a sound card.

If I'm already over 1500 RAM, how much more do I need?

A quick search of Ebay turned up the following processor (3.4 GHz): (~$150)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-P4-3-4GHz...1QQihZ018QQcategoryZ14293QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Logic has the following AGP video cards available: ($100-150)

http://www.logiccomputerhouse.com/site/main.php?module=catalog&catID=323

Found this for RAM, if it'll work, which would add 2 GB and put me over 3 GB total: ($162)

http://www.logiccomputerhouse.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=1156

That just leaves a sound card... ($50)

http://www.logiccomputerhouse.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=12658

p.s. will changing all these parts invalidate my Win XP OEM OS? That's a lot of changes...

 

[tboy]

LOL 50 for a sound card? man, don't blow your budget haha (just kidding, I paid over 2 bones for mine).

Yup, that processor will speed up your system considerably. I think the almost 1 ghz increase in processing speed is equal to about 300% +/- ( I don't know the formula actually but it is like a 2.6 is 100% faster than a 2.2 etc etc)

I'd go with this video card, it's what I have and never had any sort of problem with it and games run awesome....

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=014198&cid=999.821

FWIW: kingston ram blows dead donkey dicks from what I've read. OCZ or Corsair are better. Thing is, if you put better/faster ram into your puter, it will only run as fast as what you have now. (yes, ram has different speeds too)

Here's what I'd put in (or similar)

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=003399&cid=RAM.178

The timings 2-3-2-6 are fucking amazing.


That sound card is PFG for $51.00 actually.....(PFG=pretty fucking good)

As for invalidating your version of windows. Really it shouldn't because other than drivers, all that stuff doesn't relate to your OS like a hard drive or mobo replacement would.

 

[Keebler Elf]

How can I tell what speed of RAM my MB will support?

I'm using PC Wizard to look at my system specs of the RAM currently installed on my computer (512 x 2 and 256 x 2) and all of it is displaying 200 MHz but I'm not sure if that is the speed of the chips or just the max speed that my MB will support.

Also, does it matter how the RAM is physically connected to my MB? i.e., should the two 512's be next to each other or does it make a difference?

 

[tboy]

Keeb:

click on this link and go to page, umm 20 I think? it tells you what your mobo can use.

Go to page 21 and it will tell you the model numbers to buy even lol. Takes all the guesswork out of it for you!

BTW 200 mhz seems slow for memory....if you DO upgrade your memory, DDR400 will show significant increase in response times too....and btw: that 200 mhz is the speed of the memory, not the max your mobo can handle. Since your mobo runs at 800 mhz I believe the formula is the memory runs at half the system speed (but I could be wrong). Your MOBO supports DDR400 PC3200 memory (which is 400 mhz Direct Dynamic Read) I think that's what the DDR stands for.....

BTW: if you upgrade the processor, the vid card, the memory, the sound card, you SHOULD notice a significant increase in performance.

Something else you might want to look at too is overclocking which asus supports. basically overclocking means you pump your processor up to a faster speed than it was designed for. Kind of like putting a supercharger on your car. Although, if you're not really comfortable doing it, don't. But if you want to play, pick up a better CPU fan while you are out shopping (they are about 30 bucks) you will need the additional cooling because the processor will be running hotter.

Even without overclocking I have heard that CPUs can reach critical mass and melt in less than .001 seconds without proper cooling.

A buddy of mine overclocked his system and for a while there, was getting 4.01 ghz out of his 3.0 prescott cpu and was running the main system bus at 1200 mhz. On yeah, he had liquid cooling on the whole system too.....

 

[Keebler Elf]

There's no link...

I pulled out the RAM and took a look at it. There are 2 sticks of Kingston Value RAM KVR400X64C3A/256 (2.6 V) and 2 sticks of Blitz/Azenram Value Plus DDR 400 (3) 512MX8.

I was looking at picking up Kingston RAM (I checked out the Corsair and it's better rated but it's also a lot more expensive) but I was hoping for all Kingston but it looks like I'll be dropping the 2 sticks of Kingston 256.

Dunno why my system is only detecting 200 mHz. Where else can I check on my system to confirm?

I don't want to overclock my CPU. Heck, I'd be happy to get everything running close to spec!

I'm going to replace my video card, sound card, and pick up some RAM tomorrow. I'm also going to replace the CPU but that will take a little longer to track down.

My MB manual says that it supports 4 x 184-pin DDR DIMM sockets for up to 4GB memory and supports PC3200*/2700/2100/1600 unbuffered non-ECC DDR DIMMS (*maximum of one PC3200 DIMM per channel for up to 2GB system memory). What does the asterisk part mean?

Are these the same RAM, just in a pack of 2 vs. a single?

http://www.logiccomputerhouse.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=1156

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?do=ShowProduct&cmd=pd&pid=008570&cid=RAM.178

The one from canadacomputers is labelled as Value RAM (and is about $10 cheaper a stick) but they otherwise look identical.

 

[tboy]

sorry, my bad, I forgot to paste the link again (I did do it on page 2 or was it 1??)

http://dlsvr03.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/sock478/p4r800-vm/e1662_p4r800-vm.pdf

Let me look into that ram and I'll report back

Hmm that ram is listed as DDR and 400 mhz. Honestly it could be in your bios that the pc isn't automatically setting the ram speed by scanning the ram modules. It could be set manually to 200 mhz. You may not have to replace your ram. Just thinking outloud (and this DOES happen with cheap ram) is that maybe one of the modules is crap and while it is supposed to be 400 mhz, it could only be able to run at 200 which will limit the speed of ALL your memory.

Here's what you do to look in your bios:
Reboot your computer, while it is rebooting and before windows starts, press the Delete button (or watch really closely to see which button it is, but it is usally the delete button).
There are various screens to go into to look at various component settings. There should be one for Main and it will list what your system memory is.

Use the down arrow to scroll down to this and use the left and right arrows to change it. When you get to that setting, there may be more options but I cannot see in the manual where it lists what the options are.

Be careful playing with your bios, you can stop your computer from operating but asus has crash free bios so if you mess up, you can go back and reset everything.

Also, if you're unsure of what you just did, hit esc and don't save your changes. Your pc will boot as normal.

 

[Keebler Elf]

Okay, I looked at BIOS and it's detecting 1472MB of RAM at 333 MHz dual channel.

There was no way to select or de-select what was detected. It was auto-detected.

PC Wizard lists DIMM0, DIMM1, DIMM2, and DIMM3. Under Type, they all appear as DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]. But under Supported Frequencies, it only lists 133 MHz, 166 MHz, 200 MHz. So I'm thinking it must be a limitation of the MB.

Here's a copy of the PC Wizard info:

General Information :
DIMM0 (RAS 0, RAS 1) : 256 (Single Bank)
DIMM1 (RAS 2, RAS 3) : 256 (Single Bank)
DIMM2 (RAS 4, RAS 5) : 512 (Single Bank)
DIMM3 (RAS 6, RAS 7) : 512 (Single Bank)

Information SPD EEPROM (DIMM0) :
Manufacturer : Kingston
Part Number : K
Serial Number : 040ABA17
Type : DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]
Size : 256 MB (1 rows, 4 banks)
Module Buffered : No
Module Registered : No
Width : 64-bit
Error Correction Capability : No
Max. Burst Length : 8
Refresh : Reduced (.5x)7.8 µs, Self Refresh
Voltage : SSTL 2.5v
Manufacture : Week 48 of 2003
Supported Frequencies : 133 MHz, 166 MHz, 200 MHz
CAS Latency (tCL) : 2 clocks @133 MHz, 2.5 clocks @166 MHz, 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS to CAS (tRCD) : 2 clocks @133 MHz, 3 clocks @166 MHz, 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS Precharge (tRP) : 2 clocks @133 MHz, 3 clocks @166 MHz, 3 clocks @200 MHz
Cycle Time (tRAS) : 6 clocks @133 MHz, 7 clocks @166 MHz, 8 clocks @200 MHz

Information SPD EEPROM (DIMM1) :
Manufacturer : Kingston
Part Number : K
Serial Number : 6926C90D
Type : DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]
Size : 256 MB (1 rows, 4 banks)
Module Buffered : No
Module Registered : No
Width : 64-bit
Error Correction Capability : No
Max. Burst Length : 8
Refresh : Reduced (.5x)7.8 µs, Self Refresh
Voltage : SSTL 2.5v
Manufacture : Week 50 of 2001
Supported Frequencies : 133 MHz, 166 MHz, 200 MHz
CAS Latency (tCL) : 2 clocks @133 MHz, 2.5 clocks @166 MHz, 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS to CAS (tRCD) : 2 clocks @133 MHz, 3 clocks @166 MHz, 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS Precharge (tRP) : 2 clocks @133 MHz, 3 clocks @166 MHz, 3 clocks @200 MHz
Cycle Time (tRAS) : 6 clocks @133 MHz, 7 clocks @166 MHz, 8 clocks @200 MHz

Information SPD EEPROM (DIMM2) :
Manufacturer : Unspecified
Part Number : Unspecified
Serial Number : Unspecified
Type : DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]
Size : 512 MB (1 rows, 4 banks)
Module Buffered : No
Module Registered : No
Width : 64-bit
Error Correction Capability : No
Max. Burst Length : 8
Refresh : Reduced (.5x)7.8 µs, Self Refresh
Voltage : SSTL 2.5v
Manufacture : Week 0 of 2000
Supported Frequencies : 200 MHz
CAS Latency (tCL) : 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS to CAS (tRCD) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
RAS Precharge (tRP) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
Cycle Time (tRAS) : 8 clocks @200 MHz

Information SPD EEPROM (DIMM3) :
Manufacturer : Unspecified
Part Number : Unspecified
Serial Number : Unspecified
Type : DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]
Size : 512 MB (1 rows, 4 banks)
Module Buffered : No
Module Registered : No
Width : 64-bit
Error Correction Capability : No
Max. Burst Length : 8
Refresh : Reduced (.5x)7.8 µs, Self Refresh
Voltage : SSTL 2.5v
Manufacture : Week 0 of 2000
Supported Frequencies : 200 MHz
CAS Latency (tCL) : 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS to CAS (tRCD) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
RAS Precharge (tRP) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
Cycle Time (tRAS) : 8 clocks @200 MHz

Memory Controller Information :
Memory Controller : DIMM, SDRAM
Number of connectors : 4
Max. Module Size : 0 MB
Supported Speed : 70ns, 60ns, 50ns
Supported Voltages : 2.9v
Error Detection Method : No
Error Correction Capability : Unspecified
Current/Supported Interleave : 1-way/1-way

 

[tboy]

Hey I may have found the problem: in the manual it says you have to have the same memory in the same colour banks. IE: the 2 512's should be in the blue sockets.....

It also says that if you're using PC3200 dual channel dimms, you can't have anything in the black sockets.

Why don't you try removing the 2 256 and then run your pc wizard again?

 

[Keebler Elf]

I removed the two 256 sticks and hit delete when I rebooted. BIOS now detects 960MB and 400 MHz dual channel. I also switched the sticks so they're both in the black slots (the other slots are blue).

It's weird that BIOS detects 400 MHz but PC Wizard only detects 200 MHz.

Here's the new PC Wizard info:

General Information :
DIMM0 : Empty
DIMM1 (RAS 2, RAS 3) : 512 (Single Bank)
DIMM2 : Empty
DIMM3 (RAS 6, RAS 7) : 512 (Single Bank)

Information SPD EEPROM (DIMM1) :
Manufacturer : Unspecified
Part Number : Unspecified
Serial Number : Unspecified
Type : DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]
Size : 512 MB (1 rows, 4 banks)
Module Buffered : No
Module Registered : No
Width : 64-bit
Error Correction Capability : No
Max. Burst Length : 8
Refresh : Reduced (.5x)7.8 µs, Self Refresh
Voltage : SSTL 2.5v
Manufacture : Week 0 of 2000
Supported Frequencies : 200 MHz
CAS Latency (tCL) : 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS to CAS (tRCD) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
RAS Precharge (tRP) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
Cycle Time (tRAS) : 8 clocks @200 MHz

Information SPD EEPROM (DIMM3) :
Manufacturer : Unspecified
Part Number : Unspecified
Serial Number : Unspecified
Type : DDR-SDRAM PC3200 (200 MHz) - [DDR-400]
Size : 512 MB (1 rows, 4 banks)
Module Buffered : No
Module Registered : No
Width : 64-bit
Error Correction Capability : No
Max. Burst Length : 8
Refresh : Reduced (.5x)7.8 µs, Self Refresh
Voltage : SSTL 2.5v
Manufacture : Week 0 of 2000
Supported Frequencies : 200 MHz
CAS Latency (tCL) : 3 clocks @200 MHz
RAS to CAS (tRCD) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
RAS Precharge (tRP) : 4 clocks @200 MHz
Cycle Time (tRAS) : 8 clocks @200 MHz

Memory Controller Information :
Memory Controller : DIMM, SDRAM
Number of connectors : 4
Max. Module Size : 0 MB
Supported Speed : 70ns, 60ns, 50ns
Supported Voltages : 2.9v
Error Detection Method : No
Error Correction Capability : Unspecified
Current/Supported Interleave : 1-way/1-way

 

[Keebler Elf]

So should I use only 2 memory sticks rather than 4? Either way, all should be the same speed (400 MHz).

btw, I think I resolved the discrepancy between BIOS and PC Wizard. I think BIOS is measuring the external clock speed (400 MHz) and PC Wizard is measuring the real clock speed.

***

I'm confused about the whole dual-channel thing. My MB manual says: "When using PC3200 (DDR400) DIMMS, you may install only one module per channel for a maximum of 2 GB system memory. DO NOT install two PC3200 modules in one channel."

What is a channel? Is a channel both blue/black sockets? Or is a channel one socket? Is the statement above saying I can insert only one stick in the blue socket and another in the black socket? (as opposed to 2 in both sockets)

 

[Keebler Elf]

I think I've got it figured out. My CPU has an external rated FSB of 800 MHz and an internal bus speed of 200 MHz. The 200 MHz is as high as my MB supports in terms of RAM. So any RAM speed beyond that is wasted.

Re: the dual channel thing. I don't think it's needed since it's simply a more efficient means of RAM, but efficiency isn't a problem for me since I only need to reach 200 MHz.

The new CPU I'm looking at is still FSB 800 MHz but the speed is 3.4 GHz vs. my current 2.6 GHz. The new CPU also has a cache of 1 MB vs. the 512KB I currently have.

So, in a nutshell, my RAM speed isn't going to change but my amount of RAM can. I'm thinking I'll pick up a pair of 1GB Kingston RAM to replace my pair of 256's, which will give me a total RAM of 3GB+.

 

[thirdtime]

I'm confused about the whole dual-channel thing. My MB manual says: "When using PC3200 (DDR400) DIMMS, you may install only one module per channel for a maximum of 2 GB system memory. DO NOT install two PC3200 modules in one channel."

What is a channel? Is a channel both blue/black sockets? Or is a channel one socket? Is the statement above saying I can insert only one stick in the blue socket and another in the black socket? (as opposed to 2 in both sockets)

A channel is "the pair" or both of either the black sockets or the blue sockets.
Your manual says, if you're using PC3200 (DDR400) you can only install one stick of memory per channel! In other words, one stick in the one of the blue sockets and one stick in one of the black sockets.

DDR(400) memory actually runs at 200 MHz. Because it's Double Data Rate ram and processes double the amount of information, it effectively runs at 400 MHz

 

[tboy]

Thanks for that explanation ThirdTime, I was wondering about that...

Now Keeb, if you REALLY wanna blow your wad, Intel has come up with a QUAD channel processor which is basically like having 4 cpu's in your system.

Keeb: before going TOO much further I'd price out everything you want to do. Then I'd look at the cost of a new mobo with a core 2 duo processor, onboard sound, onboard video etc. Some of the new ones are using a 256 and 512 geforce video card built into the mobo.

The reason I say this now is because I've noticed yesterday a huge drop in the lower end core 2 duo based systems.

 

[Keebler Elf]

I think what my manual means is that if I want to use dual channel I can only use one stick in each of the blue and black slots. The reason I say that is b/c up to now I've been using four sticks and all of the RAM has been detected.

I'm going to spend a little over $500 and I figure that will buy me a good 2 years of use before I need to upgrade to a whole new system. I'm reluctant to buy a whole new system now b/c I may have to buy a new Win XP OS (my current OEM one is only a year old) and I'd want to do a lot more research before buying a new mobo or CPU.

I've budgeted...
$150 for 2 GB of RAM
$125 for video card
$50 for a sound card
$125-150 for a CPU

With taxes it'll be a little over $500.

 

[tboy]

Yeah, that'll work. And you will have a pretty decent system when you're done. (better n mine for that matter lol).

One thing too you might want to look at in the future is the speed of your hard drive. That will also speed up your response times when using an app. As windows opens a program, if you do not have enough memory to support the entire app, it dumps it into 'virtual memory' which is a swap file on your hard drive. A faster drive will allow this info to move into and out of memory faster.

When you get around to it, look at the seek and response times of the various drives. It seems the faster the drive spins (rpm) also helps response times.

Just another word of advice: when you're adding all these goodies, do them ONE AT A TIME and complete the install each and every time. Also, after every install, use the system for a bit to see if there are any bugs that pop up.

Also, when installing the sound card and video cards, don't forget to disable the onboard ones via your bios. In fact, I'd do that first before attempting to install each piece.

Another bit of advice: after you've installed the video and sound cards, go to the mfg. website and download the updated drivers. I know ATI puts out new drivers almost weekly and creative has put out 3 updates since I bought my sound card in december....

 

[Keebler Elf]

Just another word of advice: when you're adding all these goodies, do them ONE AT A TIME and complete the install each and every time. Also, after every install, use the system for a bit to see if there are any bugs that pop up.

Yeah, that's the plan. Installation never seems to go smoothly so I want to take it one step at a time.

My hard drives are pretty new so I'm not worried about their speed.

I also was told that Windows XP does not support more than 3GB of RAM so anymore than that is a waste. I asked about Vista and got a long answer that I didn't understand; in short, yeah you can go above 3GB but there are other limitations (I think it's a different sort of RAM).

 

[Keebler Elf]

Well that was weird. It took a few different configurations but eventually I got the RAM working.

My mobo manual says that a 3 DIMM config will not work, so keep that in mind.

First I plugged in my two Azenram 512's with my new Kingston 1 GB. Surprise, surprise, my OS wouldn't start (in fact I had a black screen of nothingness). Realizing that I was trying to use a 3 DIMM config, I re-configured.

This time I put the two Azenram 512's on one channel, with the Kingston 1 GB and Kingston 256 on the other. Surprise, surprise again, it didn't work.

I then tried with just the Kingston 1GB and it worked (so that stick is functional).

So then I tried Kingston 256 in slot 0, Kingston 1 GB in slot 1, Azenram 512 in slot 2, and Azenram 512 in slot 3. And it works. All 2240 MB or RAM is detected at 333 MHz dual channel.

 

[tboy]

LOL fun and games eh?

Did you download the link to the manual I posted? It probably could have saved you some time because it listed what you can put where.....(damn guys never read manuals lol)