When Is Too Much Too Much?

[Annessa]

Hi,


After getting much input and disturbed about the discussion started by WhOiSyOdAdDy? on the book "The Natashas" The Trade of Human Flesh (TY! WhOiSyOdAdDy?) I decided to go out and buy it and another book a close friend of mine mentioned about week ago called "Whore & Other Feminists" by Jill Nagle (anyone read this or heard of this by chance?)

So, being the knowledge junkie that I am, I started doing a little more research and I find myself now stuck on a thought, an emotion.
When is too much just too much?
One thought I'm trying to process. Babies?
One question linger. Their own children?

Let the discussion begin.


http://www.oacas.org/Whatsnew/newsstories/03/oct/29slaves.pdf



Annessa
xoxo

 

[xarir]

The article that Annessa posted concludes:

The researchers say many of the men interviewed gave the same explanation for why they sexually abused children: They did not want to worry about contracting a sexually transmitted disease and reasoned a child would be less risky than an adult.

Holy crap - talk about being assinine! Do these assholes honestly believe that using kids like this is any less risky than seeing an established SP?

But that's really besides the point. I think everyone in this little corner of society we inhabit (SPs & johns alike) have certain fetishes. Some people choose to enact them, others don't. Now I have absolutely nothing against fetishes. I will admit that I don't understand some of them - scat & GS come to mind. But if some people get off on it, that's fine by me. In fact, pretty much anything is fine by me as long as both parties agree to whatever it is that's being done.

But how the hell can a kid agree to sexual acts? They shouldn't even know what sex is at that early age. And no, I'm not a prude. I just think kids need to be protected from certain things until they can make their own reasoned decisions.

Sadly it seems that forced prostitution is actually a growing problem. I think society as a whole has enough taboos surrounding the business that policing the scene any more will be difficult enough. But if governments (in North America at least) can make things like smoking or drinking & driving socially unacceptable, then surely they can make child prostitution more socially reprehensible than it already is.

I don't want to be smug and say that child prostitution is a European issue - we probably have some of the same issue here just on a smaller scale. But North America needs to be vigilant and ensure that the conditions never exist so that this could become a problem over here.

To answer Annessa's question of "When is too much, too much?" directly, I say we should deal in absolutes. If an SP is in the biz because he / she wants to be (and is of legal age), then that is absolutely fine. If an SP is being forced into the biz for any reason at all, then that is absolutely not OK.

 

[tboy]

Well, as hobbyists we can actually influence the volume of women who are involved in the biz. Think if there were only 20 men that used the services of an sp? The money wouldn't be that good and many YLs that enter into the biz for the money wouldn't (enter into the biz). I would think that instead of this biz they may look for a source of income from another source.

I see a lot of ads for college girls working their way through school. I dated a woman who was a waitress for 5 years and she never (had to) slept with someone and often took home 250 a night.

As for child molesters, whatever their reason for doing it I personally think they should be a) castrated and b) locked up forever. I know there has been studies about how some can be reformed but you know what? too many are repeats (there were a few news stories in T.O. this past summer about repeat offenders being let out only to do it again).

Now I firmly believe in making the punishment fit the crime and also firmly believe in the death penalty. I know this movie was kind of cheesy but does anyone remember the kurt russel movie escape from new york? I think that is a perfect way of dealing with lifers or repeat offenders. Give them the oppurtunity to live in a society of their peers and if they can't survive? TFB (too friggin bad).

Another note about sexual involvement with (I specify it now) what we call underage women. There was a time in our history that wives at 14 were not uncommon and a woman in her 20's was considered old. I have met some 14 yr olds who had more going on upstairs than some 30 yr olds.

I don't condone it by a long shot but by the same token, I think there are too many 16 yr olds getting arrested for being with a 15 yr old. I know as men, young or old, that we have a responsibility to act appropriately and consider the ramifications of our actions.

As for fetishes, yes sometimes too much is too much (IMHO) but my personal belief is that whatever happens between 2 consenting adults is no one else's business but those 2 adults. I watch the program on city tv (sextv) and they do a lot of shows on fetishes and while some of the things they show, gives me the willies, hey, if it works for them, go for it!

The only time I have a problem with it is when it involves a person who is not able to make responsible decisions (underage) or someone who is forced into it.

I know our society has become very self indulgent but I have come to the realization that we are only on this earth for (what amounts to) a blink of an eye, why not enjoy ourselves while here? (again, I repeat, as long as that enjoyment doesn't hurt anyone else).

There was recently a story in the sun about a young woman who got caught up in the sp life and drugs. They told about her pimp who would take all her money. I think all pimps should be nailed to a wall somewhere and left to rot. If a woman decides to sell her body, then that's her choice and she should reap the rewards of her actions (may they be positive or negative). Enough of blaming everyone else for their problems.

 

[wevildoer]

exploiting children

The original question was primarily focused on the outrage that someone can exploit their own child.

While outrageous from my comfortable perspective as someone with most of Maslow's pyramid of needs checked off, I suspect that the type of woman who is willing to contemplate subjecting their own progeny to this are struggling with more basic challenges. Given a choice, I suspect that most parents would like to provide a stable environment for as long as possible to ensure that their child is able to develop the requisite skills neccessary to survive and thrive on their own.

This is an interesting question, however, when viewed from a global perspective. There was a recent news article the other day about how 15,000 children as young as 8 years old were discovered performing hard labour on a mine in West Africa. Aid workers worked to return them home to the parents who had sold them off as indentured labour. Isn't this equivalent to forcing your child into prostitution? What was particularly sad about the article was that the same aid workers acknowledged that this was just the tip of the iceberg and that hundreds of thousands of other children remain as labourers.

The article quoted points out that many men turn to young children as a way of avoiding sexually transmitted diseases. In Southern Africa, the situation is sadder. Many believe that taking a virgin will cure Aids. As if. Aids/HIV incidence is now > 30% with entire generations dying off.

Like reducing sexual transmission of diseases, education is the best defence against the exploitation of children for sexual gratification. That and extradition to face the legal system of their home countries... How many Canadian's would go on sex holidays to the third world if they knew they would face the Canadian legal system if they were caught?

Wevildoer

 

[Annessa]

tboy * As for child molesters, whatever their reason for doing it I personally think they should be a) castrated and b) locked up forever. I know there has been studies about how some can be reformed but you know what? too many are repeats (there were a few news stories in T.O. this past summer about repeat offenders being let out only to do it again).

In my most recent issue of 'Psychology Today' and in past issues of the 'American Medical Journal' they have come to the conclusion that...

*I went into shock about*

There is NO, let me say again NO cure for child molesters.

Scientists/Psychologists/Doctors, etc. have come to the conclusion that at this point in time they still can't figure out how to stop a child molester from feeling the 'need' or seeing children as sexual beings.

They've tried chemical castration in the hopes this would work but it doesn't becuase they realized that illness (madness) rests in the human mind and since we only use 10% makes you wonder the the other 90% is capable of.

Cutting off their 'member' did nothing to stop them because the brain still sends signals to the body that they still see and feel children as sexual beings. They still have their hands...mouth...etc.
It did nothing to scare or stop them. Even molesters themselves that have been interviewed said themselves that it doesn't stop them, they will find other ways to get to the children, get what they want.


So... When I read this then another thought came to my mind....

If they is NO CURE for child molesters and ALL of them are repeats and ALL of them bounce in and out of jails throughout their lifetime (so only 'God' knows in the end how many children a molester has actually been with) then why keep them alive?

Being a person who is a humantarian & studying Psych. is was so difficult for me in the begininng to have these emotions about another human being/s but my thoughts and feelings on this issue still hold strong and the same.

If we can't cure them, and we can't keep them locked up then what the hell as society and parents are we suppose to do?

I truly believe we need 'Capital Punishment' in this country.

I remember growing up and 'play time' wasen't complex.
Mom would open the door and say "See ya at dinner" and off I went running into the farmers fields, the forest, etc.
We can't do that anymore with our children and seeing parents watching their children like hawks in public parks or their front lawn in broad daylight is such bullshit and an unfair trade-off to molesters that will eventually die someday but get to live a 'full' life.


Your thoughts....

What do we do when we can't cure or help very dangerous and sick people that go around permanently destroying families?



Annessa

 

[CyberGoth]

SnowCrash Century.

welcome to reality. the world is not the sugar coated age of aquarious all shiny happy people that north americans culture would like us to believe.

reality is when you see how people treat eachother in the most vicious ways for the stupidest reasons. [war, politicks, religion, pogroms, book burnings, cross burnings, lynchings and geo-strategic maneuvering].... and are too horrified to do or say anything except possibly start crying... even with the CNN "double plus good happyworld filter applied"

one of the reasons why i shun and avoid "political correctness" is because like George Carlin, I really do not like euphamisms, language that sugar coats, obfuscates and desensitises communications"

shell shock, is shorter than "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" but then, PTSD just lacks the emotional impact of the phrase Shell Shock.

so, when in doubt. think. [and then PARTY HARD so you dont get unduly stressed out]

Lydia Lunch made the suggestion in an interview by ReSearch magazine that all women should carry guns. I rather like that idea to be honest, except for when catfights turn into firefights.

[live on CNN... world war three, marketing thru fear, and now a word from our sponsor...]

ps: Max Headroom was a warning....

as far as I'm concerned, people who rape there own children or other children should be executed, I hear the gas chamber is a particularly nasty painful unpleasant way to die.
but thats just my oppinion.

[thankyou Mr. Carlin]

 

[cherrydreams]

when is too much too much.

It is unfortunate that there are monsters out there that prey on innocent children.I have always said to my mpa co-workers that I would massage him(monster0 for free , if that meant one less chid hurt. Heck, I know other mpa's that would provide this sevice as well !But back to reality , how about some sort of a tax credit for a mpa who can stomach massaging a registered sex offender.I'm in!

 

[Annessa]

Re: when is too much too much.

It is unfortunate that there are monsters out there that prey on innocent children.I have always said to my mpa co-workers that I would massage him(monster0 for free , if that meant one less chid hurt. Heck, I know other mpa's that would provide this sevice as well !But back to reality , how about some sort of a tax credit for a mpa who can stomach massaging a registered sex offender.I'm in!

I know you mean well and your heart is in the right place hun but again we're not doing anything about 'taking out the garbage' we're still just 'feeding' them.

I totally agree with you, I think if ANYBODY was in that situation where they could spare the child by sacrificing themselves they'd do it in a second.
I would say Yes before they finished the question but is this the answer?

We need to give them other sacrifices and trade-offs. I feel molesters don't have the option of 'bargaining'

Again I post the question,

Is it time for 'Capital Punishment' in this Country?




Annessa
xoxo

 

[Annessa]

If people are interested in reading the most amazing article I have ever come across I will begin to dig for it.

It gave me the other extremes imput and insight and I was surprised that when I was done I felt more.... it's hard to put it into words. *lol - me short of words to say*
So, if I get an/the Okay then I shall begin typing.


BTW: I just want to say I am very touched, impressed and moved by all your openness and imput on this discussion. Thanks for speaking back to me/us.

*looks at article... looks at scanner... thinks about typing article... looks back to scanner*



Annessa

 

[wevildoer]

isn't the real question...

Isn't the real question that these sex tourists don't see themselves as doing something wrong when they're not at home?

I've never met any of these people face to face - well, I've seen them at a distance in Asia - but I'm guessing that the guys banging the 14 year old bar girls aren't doing the same *publically* at home.

To take a different position (yes, I know I'm out on a limb by trying to hold multiple positions on an argument), perhaps the problem isn't just when these guys are out of the country. I talked with a lawyer from Whitehorse last week who told me how prevalent sexual abuse was in the Yukon. She was trying to figure out how to create a version of South Africa's Truth and Reconcilliation committee so that people in the North could come to terms with, and thus collectively address, the problems of abuse, incest, and the like. Her position was that it was far too prevalent a problem to solve by just trying to string up a couple of offenders. It would arrogant of us to think that the problem was just 'over there' and not here as well.

Perhaps then the real issue is that the guys do a better job of repressing their behaviour here but let it all hang out when over there?


On a different note, Annessa, I'm going to disagree that capital punishment is the answer. How could you be sure they were guilty in the first place? How many stories have we seen where the wrong guy was accused? How easy would it be for a child to accuse someone out of spite?

It's not a black and white problem. Why think in terms of black and white answers?

Wevildoer

 

[cherrydreams]

when is too much too much

Well I do agree that anyone who murders with intent should be given a Capitol Punishment.I think that a molester who is convicted on his first offence should have the part of his brain removed that has the weird urges. Let him walk around like a half a vegetable-maybe this could be a harsh deterrant for anyone else who has those urges as well.We definately need stonger deterrants and Capitol Punishment.Way to many children who are victims and it does seem to be getting out of control in the past few years.

 

[CyberGoth]

even monsters die of old age eventually

i admit I am highly biased in my views of people who rape there own kids. it happens more often than people are willing or comfortable to talk about. it is a betrayal of the gravest and most horrific kind. but if one happens to be the last male member of a genetic line, then arguably the best and most fitting vengence is to simply not breed while having a very full, LONG and rich life. [hypothetically speaking]

 

[George OTJ]

My 2 cents worth. I'm in favour of capitol punishment for murder; but I think it is too extreme for sex offenders regardless of how sick they are. 'Incurability' is insufficient justification for anyone, especially the State, for taking someone else's life.

 

[Snake Pliskin]

I know this movie was kind of cheesy but does anyone remember the kurt russel movie escape from new york?

Heyyyyy! What do you mean “cheesy”? I resemble that remark!

There was a time in our history that wives at 14 were not uncommon and a woman in her 20's was considered old.

Yeah, but that doesn’t mean the 14 year old girl had a say in the matter!.

....15,000 children as young as 8 years old were discovered performing hard labour on a mine in West Africa......Isn't this equivalent to forcing your child into prostitution?

IMO, not even close. Sexual abuse scars people like no other crime.

.... it's hard to put it into words. *lol - me short of words to say*

Now THAT is FUNNY! A little levity in an otherwise heavy thread!

Castration and capital punishment are not the solutions for an enlightened society, as much as my instincts agree with the feelings behind those answers. (Although I’m not entirely opposed to a little private justice, so long as it is not excessive) Look back on society and civilization, and see how far we’ve come. Slavery was accepted and commonplace for thousands of years. Arranged marriages involving young teenage girls used to be the norm. Gay and lesbians were severely persecuted. Good grief, there used to be Witch hunts here in North America!! Granted, these things are not completely gone, but they are gradually disappearing.

It is very very clear to me that economic disparities are at the root of so many of society’s problems. We need to help third world nations, and the impoverished here at home. There is no way in a million years a sane woman would put her pre-teen daughter into prostitution if she had any other alternative!

I feel actions speak louder than words. We have plenty of one here at TERB, and not enough of the other. For myself, I will try to find a way to help these people in some small way. You don’t need money to help.