Waterboarding

[papasmerf]

I would do neither. My impulse what no doubt be to physical harm to those responsible, but it wouldn't and shouldn't be up to me to met out justice. You seem to confuse the actions of an individual with the stated policy of a state. The government is holding itself up as the deliverer of justice, and as such should be held to the ultimate standard. If I or anyone decide to take justice into our own hands I would sufer the consequences of whatever revenge I had inacted.

I appreciate your answer.

 

[fuji]

Are you seriously asking this question? Big bad America oh no you waterboarded three Al Qaeda terrorists to extract information to keep hundreds of millions of people safe from harm.

Yes. I am seriously asking the question. If America is going to stop being the beacon of freedom, democracy, and human rights, and is instead going to lower itself to use Al Qaeda style methods, I don't see the difference.

Implicit in my statement is that America should not do that and instead should hold itself to a higher standard than Al Qaeda does.

Do you agree?

You're just as bad as Al Qaeda who behead journalists, rape and stone women to death, fly planes into buildings, detonate bombs in nightclubs, markets, hospitals........

Versus America which murders journalists, rapes women, flies guided missiles into buildings, drops bombs on civilian areas, markets, hospitals....

See where I am getting at?

People acting in the name of America have done all of those things. If you want me to side with America over the terrorists--and I very much want to--you are going to have to agree that America must hold itself to a higher standard than its enemies.

Those who have carried out murders, rapes, attacks on civilians, tortured people, etc., in the name of America should be brought to justice and made an example of--an example to the whole world that "our side" is better than that.

I put "our side" in quotes because if we aren't going to do that I am not sure that it is my side.

 

[fuji]

In my opinion the US government should strike a commission and/or appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the murders of the dozens anti-American Arab journalists who were killed in Iraq since the invasion.

It is widely believed in the middle east that these journalists were intentionally killed by the US military to prevent negative reporting from the conflict zone.

Among others this accusation has been repeated by MSF, a European charity known for its integrity.

It needs an answer, and if it is true that there are individuals in the US military who ordered the murders of journalists, or intentionally put them in harms way, those individuals need to be brought up on charges of murder in a public trial.

The reputation of the United States, internationally, is not much better than Al Qaeda's reputation. Those of you who watch CNN and Fox News as your primary sources of information are no doubt somewhat unaware of just how negatively the United States is viewed in some regions.

I really do wonder sometimes where the US military is any better than Al Qaeda. While that seems an extreme statement there is enough evidence out there that there are at least some elements of the US military that are worse.

 

[K Douglas]

Yes. I am seriously asking the question. If America is going to stop being the beacon of freedom, democracy, and human rights, and is instead going to lower itself to use Al Qaeda style methods, I don't see the difference.

Implicit in my statement is that America should not do that and instead should hold itself to a higher standard than Al Qaeda does.

Do you agree?

No I don't agree. And most people of sane mind wouldn't either. The U.S. does hold itself to a higher standard, always has and always will. You are just being duped by a liberal left wing bias that has somehow characterized the U.S. as being an aggressor, some sort of school yard bully. Facts have been replaced with conjecture and conspiracy theories.

If you can't see the difference between US methods and Al Qaeda methods all I can say is god help you!

Versus America which murders journalists, rapes women, flies guided missiles into buildings, drops bombs on civilian areas, markets, hospitals....

See where I am getting at?

People acting in the name of America have done all of those things. If you want me to side with America over the terrorists--and I very much want to--you are going to have to agree that America must hold itself to a higher standard than its enemies.

Those who have carried out murders, rapes, attacks on civilians, tortured people, etc., in the name of America should be brought to justice and made an example of--an example to the whole world that "our side" is better than that.

I put "our side" in quotes because if we aren't going to do that I am not sure that it is my side.

If people acting on behalf of the US have murdered journalists or raped women they will be held accountable, and have been, in a court of law. That's the difference. [I'm sure you're referring to the many photos that have circulated showing American soldiers raping detainees at Abu Ghraib. You do realize that 99.9% of these are hoaxes, right?]

 

[K Douglas]

In my opinion the US government should strike a commission and/or appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the murders of the dozens anti-American Arab journalists who were killed in Iraq since the invasion.

It is widely believed in the middle east that these journalists were intentionally killed by the US military to prevent negative reporting from the conflict zone.

Among others this accusation has been repeated by MSF, a European charity known for its integrity.

It needs an answer, and if it is true that there are individuals in the US military who ordered the murders of journalists, or intentionally put them in harms way, those individuals need to be brought up on charges of murder in a public trial.

The reputation of the United States, internationally, is not much better than Al Qaeda's reputation. Those of you who watch CNN and Fox News as your primary sources of information are no doubt somewhat unaware of just how negatively the United States is viewed in some regions.

I really do wonder sometimes where the US military is any better than Al Qaeda. While that seems an extreme statement there is enough evidence out there that there are at least some elements of the US military that are worse.

I don't even know where to begin. first of all putting the words "integrity" and "European" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. MSF is a socialist organization that has a serious anti American bias. the reason the US is so negatively viewed in some regions is because they only get their news from state run propoganda networks.

 

[WoodPeckr]

No I don't agree. And most people of sane mind wouldn't either. The U.S. does hold itself to a higher standard, always has and always will. You are just being duped by a liberal left wing bias

KD,
Stop it before you embarass yourself further.
That's the poppycock the John Birchers peddled back in the 50s.
You must be listening to too much El Ruchbloe while sipping his lemming aid!....

 

[fuji]

The U.S. does hold itself to a higher standard, always has and always will.

That is not in evidence. That is the claim being debated.

There are people right here on this forum who are actually advocating that the US should not hold itself to a higher standard and should in fact resort to torture, murder, and other brutal methods to achieve its ends.

There is much evidence that the US has been doing that.

You are just being duped by a liberal left wing bias that has somehow characterized the U.S. as being an aggressor, some sort of school yard bully. Facts have been replaced with conjecture and conspiracy theories.

Were you able to keep a straight face as you typed that?

In what I've just quoted you have resorted to a personal slur against me, replacing fact with conjecture and conspiracy theory. Literally.

Rewind, and try again.

If you can't see the difference between US methods and Al Qaeda methods all I can say is god help you!

I see two different versions of US behavior. I see what is actually happening--the murder of journalists, the torture of innocent people, the bombing of civilians, and so on. Then I see what is reported on CNN and Fox News, the view of the US widely held to be true by Americans.

The two versions of America do not match up except in name.

If people acting on behalf of the US have murdered journalists or raped women they will be held accountable, and have been, in a court of law.

Actually no, that is the point, they have not been. The US military has not even allowed so much as an investigation. Because they were anti-American Arab journalists there has been no political outcry inside the domestic USA. Nothing whatsoever is being done about it.

 

[K Douglas]

KD,
Stop it before you embarass yourself further.
That's the poppycock the John Birchers peddled back in the 50s.
You must be listening to too much El Ruchbloe while sipping his lemming aid!....

WP,
The only embarassment here is everytime you look at yourself in the mirror. Or when you look at your paycheque every two weeks.
For the record not once have I ever listened to Rush Limbaugh. And who the hell is John Birchers?

 

[K Douglas]

Were you able to keep a straight face as you typed that?

In what I've just quoted you have resorted to a personal slur against me, replacing fact with conjecture and conspiracy theory. Literally.

Rewind, and try again.

You're damn right I was able to. If you don't think there is a serious left wing bias in our media (read www) then you must be an ostrich. Why do you think Fox News ratings obliterate the competitors? Its an escape for people who have been force fed liberal leftist bullshit everywhere they go.
And if you think that was a personal slur then you must have thinner skin then the political correctness police that have infested college campuses.

I see two different versions of US behavior. I see what is actually happening--the murder of journalists, the torture of innocent people, the bombing of civilians, and so on. Then I see what is reported on CNN and Fox News, the view of the US widely held to be true by Americans.

The two versions of America do not match up except in name.



Actually no, that is the point, they have not been. The US military has not even allowed so much as an investigation. Because they were anti-American Arab journalists there has been no political outcry inside the domestic USA. Nothing whatsoever is being done about it.

There was a full investigation of this event done by the US military which cleared the soldiers of any wrong doing. US military personnel were also co-operative with Spanish investigators. The charges were dropped in 2008 then were reinstated this past month, 5 years after the fact. This is nothing but a vendetta by a Spanish judge who apparently is so anti American it has clouded his legal judgment. The hotel where the journalists were staying was a known US military target yet they put themselves in harms way. Why blame the soldiers for the journalists utter stupidity?

 

[Asterix]

You're damn right I was able to. If you don't think there is a serious left wing bias in our media (read www) then you must be an ostrich. Why do you think Fox News ratings obliterate the competitors? Its an escape...

No argument there.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Why do you think Fox News ratings obliterate the competitors? Its an escape

Indeed!
It's the biggest escape from reality on the boob tube...

 

[fuji]

You're damn right I was able to.

Well I wouldn't have been able to. I would have felt I was making too much of a mockery of myself.

If you don't think there is a serious left wing bias in our media

For starters I personally think "left wing" is an empty construct so I think you are talking nonsense from the get go. You seem to be obsessed with this false "left"/"right" dichotemy. Most of what you've presented so far is a bunch of ideological speculation, all the while accusing others of replacing facts with ideology. That is what I found so self mocking in your post.

And if you think that was a personal slur then you must have thinner skin then the political correctness police that have infested college campuses.

Instead of responding to my point you made the unsubstantiated conjecture that I had been "duped" by some "left wing". It's just a fact that you did, your post is there for anybody to read and review.

There was a full investigation of this event done by the US military which cleared the soldiers of any wrong doing.

It isn't possible for the US military to clear itself. Think about it. Think hard. If the military is willing to order the murder of journalists it's perfectly capable of staging a kangaroo court to declare itself "cleared".

I also note that the Spanish case is just one of several hundred cases. It's the only one to get media attention in the West because the journalist killed were Europeans. The more egregious cases are the ones where the US military shot and killed Arab journalists. Those cases get virtually no play in the Western media neither "left" nor "right" wing.

The hotel where the journalists were staying was a known US military target yet they put themselves in harms way. Why blame the soldiers for the journalists utter stupidity?

That's revisionist history in the extreme. The Palestine had always, and I mean ALWAYS been one of the primary hotels used by journalists in Iraq. The US military was well aware that the hotel was full of journalists.

Put it this way, if your statement is true, if it was a "known US military target", then the US is guilty of war crimes because that would mean that the US was intentionally targetting the journalists they knew very well had always been living there.

 

[K Douglas]

fuji, it doesn't work that way. they are in the middle of a war zone. the US declared the hotel a military target because it was being used by the enemy as a launching pad. i don't care if the journalists were staying there for a thousand years, they were given notice it was an intended US target. it was almost like they purposely stayed there to make the US army out to be the bad guy should they be harmed. and unfortunately they were.

fuji, do you really think the US army would specifically target journalists in the middle of a war against Iraqi insurgents? c'mon man, give your head a shake!

 

[fuji]

fuji, it doesn't work that way. they are in the middle of a war zone. the US declared the hotel a military target because it was being used by the enemy as a launching pad.

What's hilarious about this is your revisionist history is not even the same as the US military's revisionist history. They actually claim they hit the hotel by accident and that their troops had standing orders not to hit it. YOUR version is a direct attack on the US military's version of events.

In fact what you are saying lines up very neatly with the claim made by everyone else that the hotel was hit not by accident but on purpose.

i don't care if the journalists were staying there for a thousand years, they were given notice it was an intended US target. it was almost like they purposely stayed there to make the US army out to be the bad guy should they be harmed. and unfortunately they were.

Pray tell what is your source? I find it difficult or impossible to believe that any journalists at all of any nationality would have continued staying in the hotel had they been informed by the US military that it was going to be attacked.

It sounds to me like you are making this up as you go along, and oddly, what you are making up undermines the US military version of events.

fuji, do you really think the US army would specifically target journalists in the middle of a war against Iraqi insurgents? c'mon man, give your head a shake!

Do I think an organization that advocates torture and makes a mockery of the geneva conventions, one which has a history of selling drugs, carrying out assassinations, arming and equipping death squads, and funding terrorist groups, would take the extra step and kill some pesky A-rab journalists it saw as sympathetic to the enemy?

Are you seriously asking that question?

The US Constitution is a very strong and powerful document and I sense that your experience of the US government is coloured by having seen how it behaves when it is subject to that constitution.

You are aware that the US military does not believe that it is bound to act in accord with the US Constitution when it is operating in foreign territories?

The behavior of the US government outside of US territories is remarkably more brutal, oppressive, and tyranical than anything done inside the United States. The difference is as stark as night and day.

 

[nottyboi]

The term "waterboarding" is one of the torture marketing terms. It should be drowning or water torture. Waterboarding sounds like a godammn sport!!

 

[K Douglas]

What's hilarious about this is your revisionist history is not even the same as the US military's revisionist history. They actually claim they hit the hotel by accident and that their troops had standing orders not to hit it. YOUR version is a direct attack on the US military's version of events. In fact what you are saying lines up very neatly with the claim made by everyone else that the hotel was hit not by accident but on purpose

I'm going by something I read years ago so my claims may be somewhat inaccurate. However, you're going by a journalists association source. Is there another independent corroborating source. Even if we go by CPJ the military's claim is that it was an accident. That doesn't constitute murder. It's a warzone for crying out load. Snipers are shooting at you and you have to worry about not hitting certain targets, even if the enemy is using it as a base? These journalists were in the line of fire they put themselves at risk.

Pray tell what is your source? I find it difficult or impossible to believe that any journalists at all of any nationality would have continued staying in the hotel had they been informed by the US military that it was going to be attacked.

Its amazing what a journalist will do to get a picture or a story. But I admit I could very well be wrong here.

Do I think an organization that advocates torture and makes a mockery of the geneva conventions, one which has a history of selling drugs, carrying out assassinations, arming and equipping death squads, and funding terrorist groups, would take the extra step and kill some pesky A-rab journalists it saw as sympathetic to the enemy?

Are you seriously asking that question?

The US Constitution is a very strong and powerful document and I sense that your experience of the US government is coloured by having seen how it behaves when it is subject to that constitution.

You are aware that the US military does not believe that it is bound to act in accord with the US Constitution when it is operating in foreign territories?

The behavior of the US government outside of US territories is remarkably more brutal, oppressive, and tyranical than anything done inside the United States. The difference is as stark as night and day.

Well the journalists that were killed in this incident weren't Arabs were they? Let me tell you something fuji. I grew up in a military household. I've met a alot of military people - Canadian, American, British. I can tell you that they are nothing like you describe. Sure there are a few bad apples but what is clear in your condemnation is your negative bias against authority, whether it be government, military or police. For the most part the military conducts itself professionally, they aren't killing and raping machines like Arab militias are.

 

[fuji]

Even if we go by CPJ the military's claim is that it was an accident. That doesn't constitute murder. It's a warzone for crying out load.

Well we don't know because the US military has blocked any independent investigation, claiming that its own show trial was sufficient.

What is needed is an independent investigation. I would settle for an American run investigation, provided that it was run by someone who was visibly independent of the defense department.

That's why I started out by saying that Congress should strike a commission to investigate it, and appoint an independent prosecutor.

Well the journalists that were killed in this incident weren't Arabs were they?

In THIS case no, in this case they were Europeans, which is why this case gets all the press. There were I think thirteen Arab journalists shot by the US military during the conflict and their cases get very, very little attention.

For the most part the military conducts itself professionally, they aren't killing and raping machines like Arab militias are.

I'm sure they conduct themselves "professionally" but the US military's notion of "professional" appears to include torture, disclaiming the US constitution, and ignoring the geneva conventions. There are allegations--unproven I admit, but also not properly investigated--that they have set about with a policy of murdering journalists.

There are also elite elements of the military/defense complex which have backed and funded death squads in a variety of countries, engaged in drug transactions, and sponsored terrorist organizations. I agree they are not the mainline soldiers you met in your military family, but they exist and they are a part of the total system.

What is critically important here is that overall this is a conflict about "hearts and minds", to use a US military phrase, and it is not going to be won so long as there are elements like that anywhere in the US military.

If the US actually wants to win this war it will have to win the support of people--and even I won't support an organization that engages in torture. If you can't even win the support of a right-leaning Canadian(*), how the hell are you going to win the support of a religious Muslim in the middle east?

If you want good people anywhere to be on your side you have to stand on the right side of a very bright, clear line, which is that torturing people is wrong, funding death squads is wrong, sponsoring terrorism is wrong, and yes, murdering journalists is wrong.

If that line is as bright and clear for you as it is for me you would agree that in light of the cloud hanging over the US military at this point it is important to hold a frank, honest, transparent, and independent investigation.

It may well be that investigation will reveal wrong-doings by the US military. It may well be that it will become highly embarassing, and a painful period will ensue during which the wrongs will be set right.

Unless it's done, though, the war against terrorism will never, ever be won.


(*) I still don't think "right" and "left" are valid concepts, but I hold a variety of views that many would consider right wing--such as supporting the invasion of Iraq in the first place. I also hold a variety of views that many would apparently consider left wing. Personally I don't think there ARE such things as "wings" in politics--there are artificial divisions created by opportunistic political parties, not real distinctions.