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Values of MBA -- FYI

ice_dog

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Jan 13, 2002
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Willywants

MBA!

Ice-Dog!
You lost me!
What is the damn article about?

Willy
 

WhaWhaWha

Banned
Aug 17, 2001
5,989
1
0
Between a rock and a hard place
Latest embodiment of inflated value: an MBA
40-year analysis

Heather Sokoloff
National Post


Wednesday, July 03, 2002

A business degree does not guarantee a successful career or a higher salary, a Stanford University business professor concludes in an analysis of 40 years of research on the economic value of the MBA.

Little of what is taught to students in business school prepares them for the corporate workplace, said Jeffrey Pfeffer, an expert in organizational behaviour who has taught at elite U.S. business schools for 30 years.

Rather, students are paying for prestigious names to add to their résumés and the opportunity to network with like-minded colleagues, Dr. Pfeffer said.

MBA programs in the United States can cost more than US$100,000, while tuition at the best Canadian schools ranges between $7,000 and $48,000.

"The simplest advice is that if you don't get into a leading business school, the economic value of the degree is really quite limited," said Dr. Pfeffer, whose paper, co-written by a Stanford business student, will appear in the fall edition of the journal Academy of Management Learning and Education.

"Obviously, if you get admitted to Harvard or Stanford or another elite school, the very fact of your admission is going to increase your worth in the job market," he said. "But there is not much evidence the actual education does very much."

Employers who hire brand-name MBA graduates do so on the basis of the quality of the student body at those schools, not whether students have acquired specific skills or knowledge with their degrees, Dr. Pfeffer said. He found a student's employment prospects were unrelated to grades earned.

Dr. Pfeffer's research has raised the ire of business students, especially his own at Stanford, who say they are highly satisfied with their investment.

Fellow professors, on the other hand, have voiced little objection to the findings. "To be brutally honest, everyone knows this. This is not a big surprise," he said.

Dr. Pfeffer said he has long been skeptical of the value of an MBA. He became convinced after a group of consulting firms and investment banks did their own research comparing the performance of business school graduates to those trained in two- or three-week programs teaching new employees business basics.

The internal studies found the non-MBAs did no worse, and in some cases better, than their peers with a business degree. The studies also found more education did not result in higher salaries.

For example, a study of consultants at McKinsey & Company who had been on the job for one, three and seven years found that at all three points, employees without an MBA were as successful as those with one.

"You have to question what goes on in the two years it takes to get an MBA, if someone can virtually be equivalent in two or three weeks," Dr. Pfeffer said.

"What that suggests to me is that if you take a smart person, and give them a relatively short course, a mini-MBA, if you will, they basically do as well as the MBAs."

One of the problems, Dr. Pfeffer said, is that much of the business school curriculum has remained unchanged since the 1960s. He found little evidence that business school research is influential on management practices. Many of the theories and analytical techniques imparted by the institutions "can be readily learned and imitated, at least by intelligent people."

The U.S. schools have also become slaves to magazine rankings, leading them to develop coddling devices such as professor-written lesson summaries to bolster their "student satisfaction" appraisals.

"When students are relieved of any sense of responsibility for their learning ... they learn much less," said Dr. Pfeffer, who cautioned Canadian business schools against developing a similar obsession with rankings.

Dr. Pfeffer's findings echo a recent report from the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business, the primary accrediting body in North America.

That report lambasted its members for maintaining a curriculum that is out of touch with modern business practices. "Preparation for the rapid pace of business cannot be obtained from textbooks and cases," the report said.

Still, Dr. Pfeffer said he doubts the criticism will discourage a record number of students in Canada and the United States from applying to business schools this year, giving the schools little reason to change.
 
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Willywants

Theory vs Practicality!!

Thanks again Wha!
Without accessing the article, I assumed it related to the graduate degree!
No malice intended here, but the only MBA's I have had direct business contact with were recent grads hired by the consulting firm contracted by the company with which I was employed, at a cost of $3M, to do a two year study!
I found each and every one of those I came in contact with, to be long on theory and very short on practicality!
The company, to protect their investment, ultimately took and implemented every recommendation made, untested and untried!
The results were devastating from a people perspective and there is still a very negative residual that lingers, and will continue to for some time!
I kept my position, while others didn't! The impersonality of upper management and the negative impact, induced me to apply for early retirement and sell off my company shares as their value started to drop! In fact, they ultimately dropped to less than half
value and still have not recovered! That was just over nine years ago!
No love lost here!!

Willywants (to forget the last 3 of a multi year career!)
 

WhaWhaWha

Banned
Aug 17, 2001
5,989
1
0
Between a rock and a hard place
Re: Theory vs Practicality!!

Willywants said:
The results were devastating from a people perspective and there is still a very negative residual that lingers, and will continue to for some time!
...The impersonality of upper management and the negative impact, induced me to apply for early retirement and sell off my company shares as their value started to drop! In fact, they ultimately dropped to less than half
value and still have not recovered!
Willywants (to forget the last 3 of a multi year career!)
Just a thought...
You dont suppose dumping shares had anything to do with their decline in value do you? Sounds like a case where executive information stayed with the executives. TQM and TPM never converged. Management passed ownership of their processes to consultants who didnt have to bear the responsibility for their actions.

I just took the 30-second MBA course over the net. For 200 dollars I can get the degree framed and Fedexed to my door.

Cheers
Wha
 

Avery

Gentleman Horndog
Apr 8, 2002
344
0
16
Winnipeg
I agree completely with the author's conclusions.

After a few years' employment as an engineer, I decided that an MBA might be beneficial to my career aspirations. I completed the first year at night over a three year period. My first major decision was that whatever benefits I might derive from Year Two were outweighed by the sacrifices required, so I did not enrol for it. I looked at my employer's executive roster, and not one had an MBA. I never regretted my decision.

Soon afterward, I landed a Management position with another organization, and learned more about management in the first month than I did in the three years of courses. Years later, I left the corporate management world to purchase a small business. Again, in the first few months, I learned more than I would have from any MBA program. For example, one never fully understands the concept of cash flow until one has to allocate insufficient financial resources among employees, suppliers and lenders.

My take on MBA programs, then and now, is that they are based on one premise that is fundamentally flawed. Namely, that when presented with a particular set of facts, all human beings will make the same decision through a rational process. Anyone who knows anything at all about human nature knows it just ain't so!

Not only that, most problems in business, large or small, are people-related. For example, no MBA program that I've ever heard of, trains students how to motivate people who dislike each other to work together for the common good.

Most of the people with MBA's that I've known end up as analysts or consultants (they can't cut it in their own organization, so they become outside "experts"). Those that do go into Management rarely make it to the top.
 
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Willywants

I Am Definitely Most Agreed On That!

There is more learned on the battlefront than one can ever learn in boot camp!

Willy

PS: Even survival!
 

sneakylong

New member
May 4, 2002
10
0
0
19th Hole
MBA vs PSD

In my business I tend to follow the philosophy of one Ace Greenberg (he was the chairman of Bear Stearns for about 30 years.) You will always do better in commerce to hire a P.S.D (poor, smart, with a deep desire to be rich) than an MBA any day.
 
J

joe who

my daddy used to say....

I was always taught that ...

B.A. stood for buggar all and
M.B.A. was "more buggar all"

My experinece is there 's always an element of truth in the "old " sayings.

Joe Who
 
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Willywants

That About Sums It Up!

I think, Joe, that your post nicely puts all prior posts here into a nutshell!
Well done!
You must have an MBA degree!

Willy
 

sneakylong

New member
May 4, 2002
10
0
0
19th Hole
MBA, CFA,....

Morning Wood,

Several years ago when faced with the same decision MBA or CFA I was given the following advice by someone who was a CFA and held a doctorate in economics......If you want to teach get the MBA, if you want to manage money (particularly other peoples) then go the CFA route. I took the one less traveled....(CFA) and that has made all the difference. I think the CFA covers everything an MBA would with respect to finance and econ it just leaves off all the other BS. Good luck!
 

johnny

New member
Feb 12, 2002
232
0
0
i just completed my B.a in politics. will i earn more money now than if i had started work right after high school? who knows but for me, i would not trade my degree for anything. education should have more than just an economic meaning attached to it.
this quote from Dr. james orbinski (doctors without borders) at my convocation. "only 0.2% of the worlds population have a degree, and even fewer have one that is of the quality of yours..."
that made be think....
 
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