US problem with open carry

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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Are you really saying Canadian cops don't receive gun safety training?
They get an abbreviated version which barely glosses over the very laws they are sworn to uphold. Go ahead and pop-quiz the average Canadian cop on the Firearms Act sometime, then do the same to a Canadian gun owner. The results will surprise you, especially if you're under the assumption that cops have "superior" training and education on the matter.

Better yet, go visit a cop shooting range and observe the ground strikes and shot up baffles.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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You said it, not me.



If someone feels they need to carry a gun every day to protect themselves it sure is paranoia because the actual risk of being confronted by an armed perp attempting to kill you is ridiculously insignificant. The average person is far, far more likely to be run over while walking than require a gun to save their lives.
Why do you lock your door at home? Are you paranoid?The chances of anything happening to you is very slim.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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I think the "agenda" they have is to feel safer, why else have one unless you have bad intentions that's a different story, most police aren't sufficiently trained to be effective in mass shooter situations unless they are trained for it like the SWAT team or something similar. It also depends on the situation, if your in a dark bar like the recent shooting in California or at the Pulse night club, yes, the shooter is hard to identify, but if your in a situation like the synagogue shooting or the shooting at the South Carolina church, it was pretty obvious who the shooter was and if there was someone armed in those situations maybe the body count wouldn't have been so high.
Thanks for your thinking, and the definite 'maybe'. You have convinced me, more than ever that the notion that equipping ordinary people with guns so they'll have to decide who to shoot is utterly idiotic. It's as far from making anyone safe as we can get, never mind making us all safer.

No wonder only the nation with the out of control gun-killing rate would consider it.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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Thanks for your thinking, and the definite 'maybe'. You have convinced me, more than ever that the notion that equipping ordinary people with guns so they'll have to decide who to shoot is utterly idiotic. It's as far from making anyone safe as we can get, never mind making us all safer.

No wonder only the nation with the out of control gun-killing rate would consider it.
So your telling me in broad daylight, a shooter can't be indentified and taken out by someone else with a gun? such as the case of Pittsburgh and South Carolina, maybe if someone had one not so many would have died
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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So your telling me in broad daylight, a shooter can't be indentified and taken out by someone else with a gun? such as the case of Pittsburgh and South Carolina, maybe if someone had one not so many would have died
No. You are making that up. In fact the news item which is the topic makes it abundantly clear that is no easy thing even for the professionals we hire and task with putting themselves in harm's way to do it.

You really need to think a little more before posting such twaddle.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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No. You are making that up. In fact the news item which is the topic makes it abundantly clear that is no easy thing even for the professionals we hire and task with putting themselves in harm's way to do it.

You really need to think a little more before posting such twaddle.
Unless you are blind it's pretty easy to see a guy walk into a place of worship with a rifle, he would stick out like a sore thumb, not so difficult to identify. The professionals you are talking about don't know who entered these venues, they were not present when the perp got there, the people already inside can easily determine who was there and who just entered with a rifle.
 

basketcase

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Why do you lock your door at home? Are you paranoid?The chances of anything happening to you is very slim.
Actually my door is unlocked as often as it is locked.

And yes, even the risk of burglary is far higher than the essentially non-existent chance of being the victim of a mass shooter (especially here in Canada).
 

basketcase

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They get an abbreviated version which barely glosses over the very laws they are sworn to uphold. Go ahead and pop-quiz the average Canadian cop on the Firearms Act sometime, then do the same to a Canadian gun owner. The results will surprise you, especially if you're under the assumption that cops have "superior" training and education on the matter.

Better yet, go visit a cop shooting range and observe the ground strikes and shot up baffles.
The results would not surprise me. But I still find having a gun safety course requirement better than not.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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Actually my door is unlocked as often as it is locked.

And yes, even the risk of burglary is far higher than the essentially non-existent chance of being the victim of a mass shooter (especially here in Canada).
Tell that to those families who were affected by mass shootings.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Unless you are blind it's pretty easy to see a guy walk into a place of worship with a rifle, he would stick out like a sore thumb, not so difficult to identify. The professionals you are talking about don't know who entered these venues, they were not present when the perp got there, the people already inside can easily determine who was there and who just entered with a rifle.
And if the guy with the rifle wore a day-glo vest lettered Shooter, they'd be even easier to spot. Go for it.

If carrying pistols becomes even more common who but an idiot would choose an attention-getting rifle when they intended close-up mayhem and murder? The pistol-carrying legal folks that mistakenly killed this citizen who used his legally carried pistol to drive off the Shooter, didn't go by your distinction. To them a gun was a gun, and they took out the guy holding it. If their victim had used a legally carried rifle, you're saying he'd have been in justifiable danger, and the cops at no fault? There's nothing in the article about what gun the original Shooter used, but what rule says 'irresponsible gun-owners' and wackos are restricted to long guns?

Your 'logic' is too silly.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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And if the guy with the rifle wore a day-glo vest lettered Shooter, they'd be even easier to spot. Go for it.

If carrying pistols becomes even more common who but an idiot would choose an attention-getting rifle when they intended close-up mayhem and murder? The pistol-carrying legal folks that mistakenly killed this citizen who used his legally carried pistol to drive off the Shooter, didn't go by your distinction. To them a gun was a gun, and they took out the guy holding it. If their victim had used a legally carried rifle, you're saying he'd have been in justifiable danger, and the cops at no fault? There's nothing in the article about what gun the original Shooter used, but what rule says 'irresponsible gun-owners' and wackos are restricted to long guns?

Your 'logic' is too silly.
Not silly at all, in most mass shootings assault rifles are used to kill as many as possible in a short period of time, handguns aren't as efficient, I don't know if you read the article but the pistol-carrying legal folks didn't kill this man, they actually didn't shoot at anybody. He was killed by the well trained police as you would call them.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Not silly at all, in most mass shootings assault rifles are used to kill as many as possible in a short period of time, handguns aren't as efficient, I don't know if you read the article but the pistol-carrying legal folks didn't kill this man, they actually didn't shoot at anybody. He was killed by the well trained police as you would call them.
Or, as I did call them, 'pistol-carrying legal folks', who know a single pistol bullet can be as deadly as one from an assault rifle. And that Shooters don't respect your rule that they wave only rifles around.

The more guns being used the more danger to more people.

You're still being silly, and it's not entertaining. If you can't make some point about armed citizens making people safe, there's nothing more to say here.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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Or, as I did call them, 'pistol-carrying legal folks', who know a single pistol bullet can be as deadly as one from an assault rifle. And that Shooters don't respect your rule that they wave only rifles around.

The more guns being used the more danger to more people.

You're still being silly, and it's not entertaining. If you can't make some point about armed citizens making people safe, there's nothing more to say here.
I did make the point that if their were armed citizens in the synagogue shooting and the South Carolina church shooting, the body count might not have been so high, you dismissed like you know it as fact. how you can make that determination i don't know. I get it you are against people having guns i'm not, if you can give me an example where an innocent citizen was killed at a mass shooting by someone either than the shooter or the police. i'd love to hear it.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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I did make the point that if their were armed citizens in the synagogue shooting and the South Carolina church shooting, the body count might not have been so high, you dismissed like you know it as fact. how you can make that determination i don't know. I get it you are against people having guns i'm not, if you can give me an example where an innocent citizen was killed at a mass shooting by someone either than the shooter or the police. i'd love to hear it.
I see. The gun-death of the innocent but armed citizen-vigilante this thread is about is of no concern. Now you'd like me to argue a different, and even less relevant point than the one you first stated, but which you haven't yet bothered to support.

No thanks.
 

azeri99

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Sep 19, 2018
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What are talking about? the guy in this instance that the article is about was killed by POLICE! You said it is dangerous to have citizens carrying guns to defend themselves in case of a mass shooting, i said it is not, what do you base your theory on? I asked you to provide evidence that any innocent person was killed by someone other than the shooter or by the police during a mass shooting. I went back and reas all your posts in this thread, it's just a theory of yours that people carrying guns during a mass shooting situation will start shooting innocent people.Do you have any proof of this?
 

essguy_

Active member
Nov 1, 2001
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What are talking about? the guy in this instance that the article is about was killed by POLICE! You said it is dangerous to have citizens carrying guns to defend themselves in case of a mass shooting, i said it is not, what do you base your theory on? I asked you to provide evidence that any innocent person was killed by someone other than the shooter or by the police during a mass shooting. I went back and reas all your posts in this thread, it's just a theory of yours that people carrying guns during a mass shooting situation will start shooting innocent people.Do you have any proof of this?
The lack of evidence does not mean your theory is sound. It's a fact that regular police even in the US get minimal gun training and barely adequate practice. It's a matter of time, and money. In fact most of their gun training and practice is in static ranges. There is a reason that a normal cop will call in special units to deal with these situations. They are not trained and they know it. The average recreational gun owner gets even less training and practice - especially in a city where there are fewer areas for a casual gun owner to shoot. So to expect normal citizens to act with a good result is folly. The only thing normal citizens with guns provide is a possible deterrent because of the largely false perception that they can adequately defend themselves.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Tell that to those families who were affected by mass shootings.
Which would have been less likely if guns weren't so easy to get.

As horrible as mass shootings are, they are still an extremely rare occasion that in no way justifies people carrying guns daily for "protection".
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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So your telling me in broad daylight, a shooter can't be indentified and taken out by someone else with a gun? such as the case of Pittsburgh and South Carolina, maybe if someone had one not so many would have died
Well in the case I gave you, the shooter got away but a guy defending himself with a gun got killed by the police.

And that is exactly the problem I identified and exactly what I've said in every thread where people say armed civilians could have stopped the shooting.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Not silly at all, in most mass shootings assault rifles are used to kill as many as possible in a short period of time, handguns aren't as efficient, I don't know if you read the article but the pistol-carrying legal folks didn't kill this man, they actually didn't shoot at anybody. He was killed by the well trained police as you would call them.
So well trained they killed the wrong guy. If the guys allegedly trained to deal with gunmen can't get it right, what makes you think average people could?

And I'm sure there are some gun owners who are more proficient and safer on the range than some cops but I doubt that many civilians have had any instruction on identifying targets in public situations or learned any rational set of (to use the military term) rules of engagement.
 

basketcase

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I did make the point that if their were armed citizens in the synagogue shooting and the South Carolina church shooting, the body count might not have been so high, ...
Or it might have been higher as people misidentified other law abiding gun owners as assailants like the cops did in the OP case.
 
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