US Economic Boom to go Bust?

jwmorrice

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Jun 30, 2003
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Here's an article from the New York Times that I found rather interesting. I myself haven't been south of the border in twenty years so I can only wonder how those who live in or visit the US assess the economic climate there.

jwm

______________________________
December 30, 2003
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Our So-Called Boom
By PAUL KRUGMAN


It was a merry Christmas for Sharper Image and Neiman Marcus, which reported big sales increases over last year's holiday season. It was considerably less cheery at Wal-Mart and other low-priced chains. We don't know the final sales figures yet, but it's clear that high-end stores did very well, while stores catering to middle- and low-income families achieved only modest gains.

Based on these reports, you may be tempted to speculate that the economic recovery is an exclusive party, and most people weren't invited. You'd be right.

Commerce Department figures reveal a startling disconnect between overall economic growth, which has been impressive since last spring, and the incomes of a great majority of Americans. In the third quarter of 2003, as everyone knows, real G.D.P. rose at an annual rate of 8.2 percent. But wage and salary income, adjusted for inflation, rose at an annual rate of only 0.8 percent. More recent data don't change the picture: in the six months that ended in November, income from wages rose only 0.65 percent after inflation.

Why aren't workers sharing in the so-called boom? Start with jobs.

Payroll employment began rising in August, but the pace of job growth remains modest, averaging less than 90,000 per month. That's well short of the 225,000 jobs added per month during the Clinton years; it's even below the roughly 150,000 jobs needed to keep up with a growing working-age population.

But if the number of jobs isn't rising much, aren't workers at least earning more? You may have thought so. After all, companies have been able to increase output without hiring more workers, thanks to the rapidly rising output per worker. (Yes, that's a tautology.) Historically, higher productivity has translated into rising wages. But not this time: thanks to a weak labor market, employers have felt no pressure to share productivity gains. Calculations by the Economic Policy Institute show real wages for most workers flat or falling even as the economy expands.

An aside: how weak is the labor market? The measured unemployment rate of 5.9 percent isn't that high by historical standards, but there's something funny about that number. An unusually large number of people have given up looking for work, so they are no longer counted as unemployed, and many of those who say they have jobs seem to be only marginally employed. Such measures as the length of time it takes laid-off workers to get new jobs continue to indicate the worst job market in 20 years.

So if jobs are scarce and wages are flat, who's benefiting from the economy's expansion? The direct gains are going largely to corporate profits, which rose at an annual rate of more than 40 percent in the third quarter. Indirectly, that means that gains are going to stockholders, who are the ultimate owners of corporate profits. (That is, if the gains don't go to self-dealing executives, but let's save that topic for another day.)

Well, so what? Aren't we well on our way toward becoming what the administration and its reliable defenders call an "ownership society," in which everyone shares in stock market gains? Um, no. It's true that slightly more than half of American families participate in the stock market, either directly or through investment accounts. But most families own at most a few thousand dollars' worth of stocks.

A good indicator of the share of increased profits that goes to different income groups is the Congressional Budget Office's estimate of the share of the corporate profits tax that falls, indirectly, on those groups. According to the most recent estimate, only 8 percent of corporate taxes were paid by the poorest 60 percent of families, while 67 percent were paid by the richest 5 percent, and 49 percent by the richest 1 percent. ("Class warfare!" the right shouts.) So a recovery that boosts profits but not wages delivers the bulk of its benefits to a small, affluent minority.

The bottom line, then, is that for most Americans, current economic growth is a form of reality TV, something interesting that is, however, happening to other people. This may change if serious job creation ever kicks in, but it hasn't so far.

The big question is whether a recovery that does so little for most Americans can really be sustained. Can an economy thrive on sales of luxury goods alone? We may soon find out.
 

Malibook

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This so called "boom " has been fueled by tax cuts and refinancing.
The US government is borrowing money to stimulate the economy.
Several states are borrowing money just to pay the bills.
People are taking equity out of their homes to continue living beyond their means.
These stimuli are not sustainable and have consequences.

The US dollar just hit a fresh 10 year low against the Loonie and another new all time low against the Euro.
The Loonie is up over 21% this year which is a massive move in a very short period of time.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9943

The average credit card debt in the US is $9k.

The average savings rate is pratically non-existant.

Massive numbers of people are a missed check or 2 away from poverty.

Even just a minor correction in housing prices and increase in interest rates will devastate numerous people.
The potential for major moves is very real.

Longterm interest rates are going up.
These are determined by the bond market.
Foreigners who are buying the massive US debt will demand greater returns.
How many years of tiny returns would it take just to recover the 20+% lost on the currency exchange this year alone?

Many companies are sending high paying jobs to India and China.
US companies will have to expense stock options next year which is going to devastate the bottom lines, and presumably stock prices, at numerous tech companies.

These trends must be stopped and reversed very soon or the outcome is inevitable.

This is the mighty USA I am talking about here.
What about the numerous countries that are in far worse shape.
Countries that the IMF has bought some time for but they now have even more debt and seriously devalued currencies.

I am very concerned about the state of the World economy.

Cheers and Happy New Year to everybody.
 
W

WhOiSyOdAdDy?

Malibook said:
Many companies are sending high paying jobs to India and China.
Compare to China where labor cost 10% of that in the USA... ALL jobs are high priced labor... which is why plants are closing here as manufacturing shifts to China.. many have moved... and many more will have to move to keep their invetors happy and to keep their products priced competitively... just wait until the automobile industry moves production to China... it is inevitable and if you think otherwise you are only kidding yourself.. this will destroy the north american economy as the second & third tier automotive companies are forced to close plants here... Sure there will be less cars sold here... the companies see huge potential in the developing markets in asia.... which has 2-3 billion potential customers compared to 350 million in USA & Canada + however many people in Mexico...

Also low paying jobs are moving to Asia.. like those in a customer service call center... with the price of long distance dropping like it has... it makes sense to move those jobs to asia where they are paying 10% of what they would here in labour... and the cost of the long distance phone call to call china from here, is the same as it costs to make a long distance call to any point ithin canada... if I was a shareholder in one of the large companies with a call center.. you can bet I would be pushing to move the call center to asia... an easy way to increase profits, not to mention it is easy to recruit employees in asia, as many hae learned english & speak the language better than we do.

Change is coming... prepare for the worst.
 

Arfur

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Although Paul Krugman is a notorious shill for the Democratic party, he does make some good points. Other non-mentioned worries are the huge balance of payments deficit that the US runs, plus the 500 billion dollar deficit the US is running right now.

The possibility of more countries using Euros to clear their oil sales instead of US dollars means that there will be less demand for US dollars, and therefore, the value of those dollars goes down. In a way, this may be a reason why the Dow Jones index has been going up in the last year. I haven't thought it all the way through yet, but the DJ is denominated in US dollars, right? But the earnings of companies on the DJ are multinational, diversified, and less subject to exchange rate risk than the US dollar itself. So wouldn't the DJ need to go up just to show the same intrinsic value in these companies on the index?

Let's say the DJ went up 20% in the last year. If someone from Canada bought an index fund using the DJ as the basis last year, for $100 US, today, that fund would be worth $120 US. But since the Canadian dollar is up 22% over last year, this investor has actually lost money. (I haven't worked out the math; I'm lazy).

Increases in interest rates in the US will only affect people down there over time, especially if they've locked in for 5 years or more in the last few years. That will likely soften any impact. But it will have an immediate impact on new home starts. Which, in turn, will have an affect on Canada's softwood industries, etc. We are too closely tied in with the US economy. Not as much as in the past, but still, any hurt down there is going to hurt us too.
 
W

WhOiSyOdAdDy?

Winston said:
The only thing saving the US at this time, is that it is in the best interest of all the other nations not to let the US economy collapse. If the Saudis and Europeans pulled all their investments out of the US in a 30 day time frame, the US would be in some serious economic doo doo.
I thought that I once read somewhere that the investments made by the Saudis, Japanese & Chinese in the US debt are backed 100% by gold and these arrangements only exist for those 3 countries.
 

xix

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Jul 27, 2002
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La la land
The sky is falling

This thread is begining to sound like the story where the chicken screams the shy is falling. If the U.S empire falls a new one will rise.
Roman, Arab, Egypt, Aztec, France, Germany, etc.....
 

Arfur

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I don't know which would be worse. Living next to an empire, or living next to the ashheap of civilization left after the empire self-destructs.
 

jwmorrice

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Jun 30, 2003
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In the laboratory.
Après nous, le déluge.

xix writes: If the U.S empire falls a new one will rise.
I hope that any such radical change happens long after I'm gone. It would likely be a period of great social and economic turmoil. I say, let posterity deal with it. :p

jwm
 

onthebottom

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You guys are kidding right?

Has no one been reading the news? I know liberals love to play the class warfare game and can always find the cloud in any silver lining but just to recap:

Q3 GDP growth of 8.2%
CY 04 forecast of 3.9% growth
5.9 % unemployment
Lowest new unemployment applications last week since Bush took office
Manufacturing index highest in years
Huge percentage of company earnings meeting or beating estimates (something like 80%)

Need I go on? I don't argue the trade deficit issue although I'm not as alarmed by the government deficit as some. The dramatic devaluation of the USD will only help the economy grow, make US workers and goods more competitive and help to slow imports. And if you think about it, the devaluation just lowered the debt in real terms we owe other countries.

You also don't want to forget that the US has the most productive workers in the world (output per hour), is home to something like 80 of the top 100 universities in the world..... The US has a huge competitive advantage - I wouldn't be looking for an empire change in our lifetimes - which is what I think jwm was hopping for.

OTB
 

Ickabod

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Re: You guys are kidding right?

onthebottom said:
I know liberals love to play the class warfare game
Can't you comment on anything without using the term "class warfare"?

I know, i know, say it enough times and people will start to believe it blah blah blah.
 

jwmorrice

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In the laboratory.
Re: You guys are kidding right?

onthebottom said:
...[blah, blah, blah] liberals [blah, blah, blah] class warfare game [blah, blah, blah]Need I go on? [blah, blah, blah] You also don't want to forget that the US has the most [blah, blah, blah] The US has a huge [blah, blah, blah] I wouldn't be looking for an empire change in our lifetimes - which is what I think jwm was hopping for.

OTB
First, I don't think anything you've written here contradicts the points made in the original article. Second, if you read what I had written, you wouldn't be saying that an empire change in our lifetimes was what I was "hopping (sic!) for". But, I guess when you have a fixed view of things or people, perceptions just kinda fall into line.

jwm
 

Lil'Miss

Craving DenWa's Member
When looking at the article it's true that one can infer that the middle class wasn't spending like the wealthier people. But looking at this Christmas, my family and many others were shoppping at the higher end stores this year because we could afford to, as opposed to other years when we simply got what Wal-mart had to offer because those stores were all our parents could afford. It's easy to speculate when the whole picture isn't being offered to you. I know this isn't true for everybody, but we can't all have the same income. Most of the Americans I know, including myself and DenWa, are doing just fine.

Miss
 

james t kirk

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The big problem as I see it is the HUGE US federal deficit. 500 Billion this year and another 500 billion next year.

The worry is that this will lead to a raising of interest rates (that are so low, it's unreal)

As the US dollar continues its fall, the pressure on the fed will be to RAISE rates at somepoint to keep bond holders in the market and provide a return to investors (since this is where the American gov't is getting the money to deficit finance.) The falling US dollar, combined with low interest rates causes money to be pulled out of the american bond market. Right now, the american gov't needs the bond market.

This has led to speculation this week that Greenspan will raise rates sooner rather than later.

If interest rates go up, then the US economy could cool off.

Which leads to the question...

Have artificially low rates led to an artificial surge in the economy as a whole?

It would be much cheerier if there was no US federal deficit with "normal" interest rate levels as was the case in the mid / late 90's.

But then again, all bull markets need fear to motivate them.

One thing is for sure, the US federal deficit is a beast out of control. Borrowing at this level can not go on indefinitely. Chretien was not wrong when he criticized the US fiscal policy of spending borrowed money.

While this (deficit spending by gov't) is a sound strategy in fiscal hard times, not to this level, not with tax cuts, and when things get better, you are supposed to do the opposite.

How will this economy like 500 billion dollars of borrowed money being pulled out of the market????

My guess is not too much.

Something is going to have to give. My guess is that Bush will continue to deficit spend like a drunken sailor until at least his re-election. (It's all about politics and re-election after all isn't it?) The LAST thing Bush wants is to have a weak economy going into the federal election in Nov. 2004. He saw what that did to his father. He is willing to sacrifice America's future by spending future dollars NOW to keep mom and pop America happy.

The american public wants it all. They want nice new multi billion dollar aircraft carriers, the biggest military in the world, every military toy conceivable, and all the other fixins, but they don't want to pay for it. They want lowered taxes so they can go out and buy that new colour TV too.

Well, I am a BIG believer in the old saying that "there aint no such thing as a free lunch" It's the truth. Just your average american doesn't get that since the US federal defict to him is something about as foreign what clock Canada uses to tell time.
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: You guys are kidding right?

jwmorrice said:
First, I don't think anything you've written here contradicts the points made in the original article. Second, if you read what I had written, you wouldn't be saying that an empire change in our lifetimes was what I was "hopping (sic!) for". But, I guess when you have a fixed view of things or people, perceptions just kinda fall into line.

jwm
What I meant to say, and thought I'd said, was that there would not be an empire change in our life time which is what you were hoping for (meaning that you were hoping there would not be an empire change). Now that I re read it, it does look a bit confusing - sorry about that.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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While

james t kirk said:
The big problem as I see it is the HUGE US federal deficit. 500 Billion this year and another 500 billion next year.

The worry is that this will lead to a raising of interest rates (that are so low, it's unreal)

As the US dollar continues its fall, the pressure on the fed will be to RAISE rates at somepoint to keep bond holders in the market and provide a return to investors (since this is where the American gov't is getting the money to deficit finance.) The falling US dollar, combined with low interest rates causes money to be pulled out of the american bond market. Right now, the american gov't needs the bond market.

This has led to speculation this week that Greenspan will raise rates sooner rather than later.

If interest rates go up, then the US economy could cool off.

Which leads to the question...

Have artificially low rates led to an artificial surge in the economy as a whole?

It would be much cheerier if there was no US federal deficit with "normal" interest rate levels as was the case in the mid / late 90's.

But then again, all bull markets need fear to motivate them.

One thing is for sure, the US federal deficit is a beast out of control. Borrowing at this level can not go on indefinitely. Chretien was not wrong when he criticized the US fiscal policy of spending borrowed money.

While this (deficit spending by gov't) is a sound strategy in fiscal hard times, not to this level, not with tax cuts, and when things get better, you are supposed to do the opposite.

How will this economy like 500 billion dollars of borrowed money being pulled out of the market????

My guess is not too much.

Something is going to have to give. My guess is that Bush will continue to deficit spend like a drunken sailor until at least his re-election. (It's all about politics and re-election after all isn't it?) The LAST thing Bush wants is to have a weak economy going into the federal election in Nov. 2004. He saw what that did to his father. He is willing to sacrifice America's future by spending future dollars NOW to keep mom and pop America happy.

The american public wants it all. They want nice new multi billion dollar aircraft carriers, the biggest military in the world, every military toy conceivable, and all the other fixins, but they don't want to pay for it. They want lowered taxes so they can go out and buy that new colour TV too.

Well, I am a BIG believer in the old saying that "there aint no such thing as a free lunch" It's the truth. Just your average american doesn't get that since the US federal defict to him is something about as foreign what clock Canada uses to tell time.
I understand the fiscal ramifications of a large federal deficit the US deficit needs to be viewed both as a percentage of GDP (4.9%) and at a down part of the business cycle. What caused the deficit was not tax breaks but a weakened economy (lower tax revenues). What will lower the deficit is a growing economy, not higher taxes - it's not a zero sum game.

When you look at other large economies in this down cycle you see similar deficit spending:

Japan - 7.4 % of GDP deficit
Germany - 4.1% of GDP deficit
France - 4.0 % of GDP deficit

We should also note that there is substantial defense spending going on that was hard to predict pre 9/11 that the above countries are not absorbing at our level.

As for interest rates, they will stay low until there is a sign of growing inflation in the economy - none so far. This is one of the huge benefits of very productive economy. You also don't see Japan's rates (zero) going up because of huge government borrowing. It is interesting that the rates have stayed so low with the growing need of the US Government to borrow - perhaps there's a currency swing up factored into lenders formulas that would make USD bonds more attractive.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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I considered making this point

Lil'Miss said:
When looking at the article it's true that one can infer that the middle class wasn't spending like the wealthier people. But looking at this Christmas, my family and many others were shoppping at the higher end stores this year because we could afford to, as opposed to other years when we simply got what Wal-mart had to offer because those stores were all our parents could afford. It's easy to speculate when the whole picture isn't being offered to you. I know this isn't true for everybody, but we can't all have the same income. Most of the Americans I know, including myself and DenWa, are doing just fine.

Miss
but thought I'd get flamed mercilessly for it.

I'm in violent agreement - most middle class folks are doing very well.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: You guys are kidding right?

Ickabod said:
Can't you comment on anything without using the term "class warfare"?

I know, i know, say it enough times and people will start to believe it blah blah blah.
See the above posts for examples. You can't say that liberals (they’re too frightened to call themselves liberals so they use the term progressives) don't use class warfare to taint any good news on a Republican's watch. It's so prevalent perhaps you've stopped noticing it.

Can't wait for that Vermont based suicide cult to swing into action this year - Dean is having this much trouble and Karl hasn't even started in on him yet. Gonna be fun.

OTB
 

james t kirk

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Re: While

onthebottom said:
I understand the fiscal ramifications of a large federal deficit the US deficit needs to be viewed both as a percentage of GDP (4.9%) and at a down part of the business cycle. What caused the deficit was not tax breaks but a weakened economy (lower tax revenues). What will lower the deficit is a growing economy, not higher taxes - it's not a zero sum game.

When you look at other large economies in this down cycle you see similar deficit spending:

Japan - 7.4 % of GDP deficit
Germany - 4.1% of GDP deficit
France - 4.0 % of GDP deficit

We should also note that there is substantial defense spending going on that was hard to predict pre 9/11 that the above countries are not absorbing at our level.

As for interest rates, they will stay low until there is a sign of growing inflation in the economy - none so far. This is one of the huge benefits of very productive economy. You also don't see Japan's rates (zero) going up because of huge government borrowing. It is interesting that the rates have stayed so low with the growing need of the US Government to borrow - perhaps there's a currency swing up factored into lenders formulas that would make USD bonds more attractive.

OTB
So what you are saying then is that only Japan has a larger fiscal deficit than the US.

Germany is going through some tough times. The germans have some unbelievable social policies. They start their careers off at 5 weeks paid vacation and end up somewhere around 12 weeks off (We start at 2 weeks off, I have been working for 14 years and get three weeks off. No-one in my office gets more than 4 weeks off). They receive 3 years maternity leave.

France is not in great shape by any stretch of the imagination.

Japan has been mired in a fiscal crisis for something like 10 years.

Something has got to give.

As far as the US military goes, this has been hashed before. It's beyond description how BIG it is. Totally set up to fight in a conventional warfare situation.

I don't care what kind of military the US wants to have, you just have to have the money to pay for it.

Remember the USSR???

Their military and the demands of the military / USSR empire basically bankrupted the country and lead to the break up of the USSR since they could no longer afford it.

I realize that these are two very different economies (USA vs. USSR), but the end result was that the military was such a drain on an economy that it lead to the implosion of the empire.

It is interesting to note that evey other G-8 nation has been steadily reducing money spent on the military, other than the USA. (Canada has made this an olympic sport) The US, however, has gone the opposite way, regardless of 911.
 

Ickabod

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Re: I considered making this point

onthebottom said:
I'm in violent agreement - most middle class folks are doing very well.

OTB
A ridiculous statement. Why not just say "most people who make $50,000 a year make $50,000 a year"? Or better yet, "most people who make $50,000 a year are doing quite well". Brilliant.

Here's what is apparently a news flash for ya. The poor aren't doing quite so well. And the problem is that there are far more of them now then there were 3 years ago.
 

Ickabod

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Re: Re: Re: You guys are kidding right?

onthebottom said:
See the above posts for examples. You can't say that liberals (they’re too frightened to call themselves liberals so they use the term progressives) don't use class warfare to taint any good news on a Republican's watch.
Um, yes i can. Elections are bought and paid for, the rich control every aspect of this country, and you think there's a class war against the rich. I'll give you plenty of credit for book smarts, OTB, but you ain't got a lick of common sense.

It's so prevalent perhaps you've stopped noticing it.
I haven't noticed it because i choose not to dwell on the delusions of you conservatives.

Can't wait for that Vermont based suicide cult to swing into action this year - Dean is having this much trouble and Karl hasn't even started in on him yet. Gonna be fun.

OTB
On the contrary. What'll be fun is when 100% of the democratic nominee's attention can finally be placed on what a fraud Bush is. Geez, even the guy's walk is phony.
 
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