Universal Basic Income

[rhuarc29]

Personally, I'd rather they curtail globalism, and the associated outsourcing of jobs overseas that has led to a massive windfall for the wealthy and large corporations, while decimating the Middle class and smaller operations, than actually implement a UBI. This way, people are still providing for themselves and have a sense of accomplishment. But if globalism isn't nipped in the bud, then some kind of UBI is going to be required. My problem is that I don't trust our government to implement it in a way that is a effective and sustainable. Besides which, Canada is NOT a good test bed for UBI, as our productivity is already alarmingly low and still dropping. Removing incentive to work in that environment is just asking for disaster.

 

[y2kmark]

Personally, I'd rather they curtail globalism, and the associated outsourcing of jobs overseas that has led to a massive windfall for the wealthy and large corporations, while decimating the Middle class and smaller operations, than actually implement a UBI. This way, people are still providing for themselves and have a sense of accomplishment. But if globalism isn't nipped in the bud, then some kind of UBI is going to be required. My problem is that I don't trust our government to implement it in a way that is a effective and sustainable. Besides which, Canada is NOT a good test bed for UBI, as our productivity is already alarmingly low and still dropping. Removing incentive to work in that environment is just asking for disaster.

Big corporations and concentrations of wealth have been the root of most problems thru this century so far, at least. Without the MIC around the world, what would fascists do for weapons?

 

[rhuarc29]

Big corporations and concentrations of wealth have been the root of most problems thru this century so far, at least. Without the MIC around the world, what would fascists do for weapons?

I'd agree it's the root of a great many of our problems, even more so than are evident on a surface level. The reason I'd prefer to curtail globalism instead of enacting a UBI is that a UBI would exercise the same amount of control over the masses as large corporations currently wield. The goal should be to put the power back in the everyday person's control. Can only achieve that if a person's work content is valuable.

 

[jalimon]

Didn’t this get tested during Covid when everyone was asked to stay home? Drove up prices everywhere and made people lazy. And yes I know there are many other reasons for prices, inflation, but I don’t see anything good out of handing out free money.

We won't get to UBI by choice but by necessity. In the future, there will simply not be enough jobs for everyone. If you do not want madness and violence from the ones who don't have incomes we will need to alternate who works when (trying to balance it out) and give a basic allowance to everyone.

So basically those who work gets more, obviously, but those who don't get the basic income.

 

[JohnLarue]

Personally, I'd rather they curtail globalism, and the associated outsourcing of jobs overseas that has led to a massive windfall for the wealthy and large corporations, while decimating the Middle class and smaller operations, than actually implement a UBI. This way, people are still providing for themselves and have a sense of accomplishment. But if globalism isn't nipped in the bud, then some kind of UBI is going to be required. My problem is that I don't trust our government to implement it in a way that is a effective and sustainable. Besides which, Canada is NOT a good test bed for UBI, as our productivity is already alarmingly low and still dropping. Removing incentive to work in that environment is just asking for disaster.

curtailing globalism is difficult to do with govt policy
the only real ammo is tariffs , which invariably result in counter tariffs
as as you point out I don't trust our government. the idea of Trudeau messing with punitive trade measures is frightening.

there needs to be an economic reason to incentivise business to reshore production
maintaining a robust supply chain has been suggested as a possible post pandemic driver for reshoring.
Not a lot seems of reshoring appears to have occurred thus far
however rejigging supply chains has risks and it can be time consuming to get it right , so it might still be a work in progress
and there would be a lot of time consuming cost benefit evaluation
every company would love a robust supply chain , but not at the cost of a huge hit to margins, particularly if current supply is not constrained

 

[JohnLarue]

Big corporations and concentrations of wealth have been the root of most problems thru this century so far, at least. Without the MIC around the world, what would fascists do for weapons?

suggestion for you: start a business and split the profits evenly with all your employees ( you know equality for all)
you will be doing your "fair share" of addressing "the root of most problems thru this century so far"

i should warn you that if you higher that 6th employee without increasing your profits the other five will not be pleased the new hire has decreased their take home, ........hopefully they wont strike

 

[JohnLarue]

Very good point

or lock up the ones causing madness and violence and provide for their minimum basic needs in jail

if you give money to anyone to prevent madness and violence, they will soon learn madness and violence pays
some whole 'families' figured this out

 

[JohnLarue]

What next, shall we talk about how well educated everyone in Cuba is?

educated is always good
however, the collective knowledge, understanding and skills of the Cuban people are being wasted by the failed socialist / communist experiment

Cuba is going through its worst economic crisis in 30 years. Since 2020, Cubans have suffered falling wages, deteriorating public services, regular power outages, severe shortages and a growing black market. Hundreds of thousands of people have fled the country.Jan 24, 2024

the Cuban people deserve better

 

[Frankfooter]

curtailing globalism is difficult to do with govt policy
the only real ammo is tariffs , which invariably result in counter tariffs
as as you point out I don't trust our government. the idea of Trudeau messing with punitive trade measures is frightening.

there needs to be an economic reason to incentivise business to reshore production
maintaining a robust supply chain has been suggested as a possible post pandemic driver for reshoring.
Not a lot seems of reshoring appears to have occurred thus far
however rejigging supply chains has risks and it can be time consuming to get it right , so it might still be a work in progress
and there would be a lot of time consuming cost benefit evaluation
every company would love a robust supply chain , but not at the cost of a huge hit to margins, particularly if current supply is not constrained

Why do you keep calling for other generations to take the cuts but get super pissed about talks about CPP?
Maybe its time for an economic incentive to keep seniors working at minimum wage to subsidize youth.

 

[jeff2]

curtailing globalism is difficult to do with govt policy
the only real ammo is tariffs , which invariably result in counter tariffs
as as you point out I don't trust our government. the idea of Trudeau messing with punitive trade measures is frightening.

there needs to be an economic reason to incentivise business to reshore production
maintaining a robust supply chain has been suggested as a possible post pandemic driver for reshoring.
Not a lot seems of reshoring appears to have occurred thus far
however rejigging supply chains has risks and it can be time consuming to get it right , so it might still be a work in progress
and there would be a lot of time consuming cost benefit evaluation
every company would love a robust supply chain , but not at the cost of a huge hit to margins, particularly if current supply is not constrained

The problem is also robotics. The mechanization of factories and resource extraction which started in the 1980s.

 

[TomFord1980]

I'm just wondering if any of the States down South have UBI maybe we can learn from them.

If you print money and give it to people, inflation will go up as there will be more dollars chasing fewer goods.

I think the better solution is to tax corporations more and lower the income tax for lower and middle income canadians.

 

[JohnLarue]

The problem is also robotics.

good luck fixing that problem

The mechanization of factories and resource extraction which started in the 1980s.

mechanization started with the wheel and resource extraction stated with the first bonfire

you must have neurotic nightmares caring around your anti-human views, while sharing the planet with 8 billion humans
it must also be difficult to control your own self loathing

 

[JohnLarue]

If you print money and give it to people, inflation will go up as there will be more dollars chasing fewer goods.

I think the better solution is to tax corporations more and lower the income tax for lower and middle income canadians.

the bottom 20% pay 1.8% of all taxes

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/measuring-the-distribution-of-taxes-in-canada.pdf

Specifically, the top 20 percent earns 49.1 percent of the nation's income but pays 55.9 percent of total taxes—a difference of 13.9 per- cent. By contrast, families in the bottom 20 percent earn 4.1 percent of the nation's income while collectively paying just 1.8 percent of all taxes

if you want to reduce 1.8% , you pretty much have to go to zero i.e. a free ride for 20% >>> disaster
which cohort uses more govt services ??
which cohort creates more jobs ??

tax corporations more

there will be costs associated with this
job losses, higher prices passed onto the consumer

 

[jeff2]

good luck fixing that problem


mechanization started with the wheel and resource extraction stated with the first bonfire

you must have neurotic nightmares caring around your anti-human views, while sharing the planet with 8 billion humans
it must also be difficult to control your own self loathing

Yes, mechanization started with the wheel but the big push in terms of manufacturing employment happened during the eighties.
I knew that would be your typical response, Mr. Opportunity.
For example, you can make probably 2 or 3 times as many cars using less than half the people of 50 years ago.
I am just pointing out that trade is often less important than automation in terms of employment, Mr. Opportunity.
This is something that Trump does not get.
I am not saying stop it. It is just that the transition to tech was harder for many employees compared to say the transition from farming to factories.
Turning a factory guy into a software engineer is something different.

Automation is replacing more workers than outsourcing, study says

New and better jobs could be created if we invest in breakthrough technologies that generate opportunities.

www.marketplace.org

 

[JohnLarue]

Yes, mechanization started with the wheel but the big push in terms of manufacturing employment happened during the eighties.
For example, you can make probably 2 or 3 times as many cars using less than half the people of 50 years ago.

actually the invention of the steam engine, the invention of the machine lathe and Henry Fords assembly line all were quantum leaps in terms of manufacturing employment relative to any changes that may have occurred in the eighties
and all 3 of those led to massive increases in manufacturing employment

the 1980s manufacturing employment likely increased world wide as millions in Asia started making 'things'

where things are made is quite different from how the are made
robotics ideally removes minimum wage costs for repetitive tasks from the equation, which was Asia's competitive advantage
conclusion: obtain in demand skills that apply decision making

I am just pointing out that trade is often less important than tech in terms of employment, mister opportunity.

does tech feed your family ?
does tech cloth your kids ?
does tech provide you shelter ?
no

trade does

This is something that Trump does not get.
I am not saying stop it. It is just that the transition to tech was harder for many employees compared to say the transition from farming to factories.
Turning a factory guy into a software engineer is something different.

you can not stop it
innovation and advancements is embedded in human nature
i find it odd how so many on the left lament and despise human progress

without such progress you would spend half your day hunting your next meal with a stick and a rock

Turning a factory guy into a software engineer is only limited by the the factory guys desire and attitude
if successful he is better off and more productive, a plus for society
a added bonus is software engineers tend not to strike

 

[rhuarc29]

curtailing globalism is difficult to do with govt policy
the only real ammo is tariffs , which invariably result in counter tariffs
as as you point out I don't trust our government. the idea of Trudeau messing with punitive trade measures is frightening.

I'm fine with tariffs, even if they result in counter tariffs. How much stuff do we export to China and India relative to how much we import from them? A third? A quarter? We only really lose on stuff we cannot produce domestically, which is NOT the majority of those goods.

The idea isn't to enact blanket tariffs, but to apply tariffs in a way that is in keeping with export country's standard of living, in order to make manufacturing a level playing field. The metric used could be GDP-per-capita, or median salary, or something else along those lines. Start the tariffs low, then ramp them up until equilibrium is achieved. We need to undo decades worth of wealth disparity caused by cheap global trade, so it'll take decades to correct.

there needs to be an economic reason to incentivise business to reshore production
maintaining a robust supply chain has been suggested as a possible post pandemic driver for reshoring.
Not a lot seems of reshoring appears to have occurred thus far
however rejigging supply chains has risks and it can be time consuming to get it right , so it might still be a work in progress
and there would be a lot of time consuming cost benefit evaluation
every company would love a robust supply chain , but not at the cost of a huge hit to margins, particularly if current supply is not constrained

The pandemic supply disruption did not convince Canadian and American companies to reshore production in any meaningful way, so I doubt that's going to happen without legislative action. And what kind of legislative action would that be?

 

[JohnLarue]

I'm fine with tariffs, even if they result in counter tariffs. How much stuff do we export to China and India relative to how much we import from them? A third? A quarter? We only really lose on stuff we cannot produce domestically, which is NOT the majority of those goods.

that would be inflationary
govt policy has already made the Bank of Canadas job of maintaining price stability more difficult than it should be

again tariffs will require govt to pick and choose winners.
they are terrible at doing this and everything Justin Trudeau touches turns to shit

he would wrap tariffs around anything labelled green or connected to liberal insiders and let counter tariffs decimate our resource sector

much of the manufactured goods from China is imported into Canada by large multinational companies, particularly US based large multinational companies
they will view Canadian tariffs as anti-competitive and demand Washington take actions (counter tariffs)
We do not want to start a trade war with the US . Canada will lose that battle and badly (softwood lumber)

The idea isn't to enact blanket tariffs, but to apply tariffs in a way that is in keeping with export country's standard of living, in order to make manufacturing a level playing field. The metric used could be GDP-per-capita, or median salary, or something else along those lines. Start the tariffs low, then ramp them up until equilibrium is achieved.

sneak up on your trading partners with ever escalating tariffs?
yeah Ok , they wont recognize that ... not
hows the gradual implementing of carbon taxes working out for the corrupt moron?

The metric used could be GDP-per-capita

we already have a declining GDP-per-capita, trade wars will only accelerate the decline

or median salary, or something else along those lines

median salary, is not directly relate to the cost of imported goods

think about the number of sales, transportation and distribution jobs lost by artificially increasing the cost/ price of imported goods

We need to undo decades worth of wealth disparity caused by cheap global trade, so it'll take decades to correct.

wealth disparity caused by cheap global trade ??

a flat screen Tv that use to sell for $800 now cost $200
a computer , monitor and printer combo cost $5000 in 1985 has been replace by $500 laptops with 100 X the capabilities

How much are you willing to pay for a Canadian made cell phone , complete with a birch bark case ?
want to buy your kid a new Canadian made bicycle? $500 to $1,000

The pandemic supply disruption did not convince Canadian and American companies to reshore production in any meaningful way, so I doubt that's going to happen without legislative action. And what kind of legislative action would that be?

an economically damaging legislative action

nobody will invest the next dollar one in Canada if govt starts dictating how supply chains are managed

less govt is required, not more govt

 

[Frankfooter]

that would be inflationary
govt policy has already made the Bank of Canadas job of maintaining price stability more difficult than it should be
again tariffs will require govt to pick and choose winners.
they are terrible at doing this and everything Justin Trudeau touches turns to shit
he would wrap tariffs around anything labelled green or connected to liberal insiders and let counter tariffs decimate our resource sector
much of the manufactured goods from China is imported into Canada by large multinational companies, particularly US based large multinational companies
they will view Canadian tariffs as anti-competitive and demand Washington take actions (counter tariffs)
We do not want to start a trade war with the US . Canada will lose that battle and badly (softwood lumber)
sneak up on your trading partners with ever escalating tariffs?
yeah Ok , they wont recognize that ... not
hows the gradual implementing of carbon taxes working out for the corrupt moron?
we already have a declining GDP-per-capita, trade wars will only accelerate the decline
median salary, is not directly relate to the cost of imported goods
think about the number of sales, transportation and distribution jobs lost by artificially increasing the cost/ price of imported goods
wealth disparity caused by cheap global trade ??
a flat screen Tv that use to sell for $800 now cost $200
a computer , monitor and printer combo cost $5000 in 1985 has been replace by $500 laptops with 100 X the capabilities
How much are you willing to pay for a Canadian made cell phone , complete with a birch bark case ?
want to buy your kid a new Canadian made bicycle? $500 to $1,000
an economically damaging legislative action
nobody will invest the next dollar one in Canada if govt starts dictating how supply chains are managed
less govt is required, not more govt

So less government, less social services and less CPP is what you want?

 

[bazokajoe]

There are very few people who deserve UBI. Probably 1% or less of the population.

 

[Frankfooter]

There are very few people who deserve UBI. Probably 1% or less of the population.

That wouldn't be very universal.