union pearson express train...$27.50???
- Thread starter black booty lover
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lol really?
You think no taxpayer money is directed to Pearson or the UP?
Delusional much?
OMFG
I did not even realize this at first but this just underlines the sheer absurdity of the UP
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ts_up_express_train_prepares_for_takeoff.html
"The UP Express will run on the Kitchener GO line from Union Station until a point near Highway 427 and Goreway Rd., where it will branch off onto a newly built 3-kilometre rail spur."
Yup the ENTIRE rail line EXCEPT for a short 3KM spur is ON THE FUCKING GO TRANSIT RAILS
So someone please explain to me WHY we need to spend 65 million purchasing new trains from Japan?
WHY this UP is so much more expensive than GO?
And exactly WHY they could not simply have designated a new GO train for airport trips in the first place?
I did not even realize this at first but this just underlines the sheer absurdity of the UP
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ts_up_express_train_prepares_for_takeoff.html
"The UP Express will run on the Kitchener GO line from Union Station until a point near Highway 427 and Goreway Rd., where it will branch off onto a newly built 3-kilometre rail spur."
Yup the ENTIRE rail line EXCEPT for a short 3KM spur is ON THE FUCKING GO TRANSIT RAILS
So someone please explain to me WHY we need to spend 65 million purchasing new trains from Japan?
WHY this UP is so much more expensive than GO?
And exactly WHY they could not simply have designated a new GO train for airport trips in the first place?
When I'm in Toronto I generally just rent a car at the airport, so I doubt I will be riding that train at all. If I wasn't going to rent a car I would pay the flat rate for an airport limo downtown, and probably use Uber to get back to the airport. The train isn't convenient enough to be that expensive -- I would rather pay more for door to door service straight to my hotel.
Of course it was bought by taxpayers; now folks want its operating cost to also be taxpayer paid. As if that would be a freebie. Was there some part of "how much you want everyone to chip in to pay part of your fare to get to the Airport?" did you not understand. I'll happily clarify.
How much of your taxes do you want to pay so people can ride out to Pearson cheaply? And just how cheap should that fare be?
TANSTAAFL!
Duh! Because the Go trains we already own are fully booked serving the commuter routes we already have in service. New routes need new trains, the logo you put on them doesn't significantly affect cost.
From the Star article, "Of the 5 million trips a year to Pearson, the air-rail link is expected to carry about 5,000 people a day, taking 1.2 million cars off the road route over the course of a year."
Assuming the main operating hours are from 7am to 9pm, 14hour/day, and the train runs every 15 minutes, then the train will be moving about 90 people per trip to the airport. Sounds great.
5,000 people per day going to Pearson is 1,825,000 people per year. GTAA says it services 9,377,880 people per year, coming and going, so the 5 million trips to Pearson quoted in the article looks reasonable.
UP Express is expecting to capture 1,825,000/5,000,000 = 36% of all the travelers going to the airport. Think that 36% is a bit ambitions considering Ontario is a big province, and the only people who would benefit from the service would those traveling alone from the downtown core to the airport.
Hey you want to subsidize it like GO? I'll use the UP far more often than any other form of Public Transit....so I'll thank you for your generous tax donation.
Which assumes he walked from Union to 427 and Goreway Rd, or found some other free transport for that majority part of his trip. In fact anyone who'd been paying attention would be aware of major construction all along the entire route so the tracks could be efficiently and safely shared.And eventi\ually electrified. The bits in the Village of Weston got lots of attention as the station and road-realignments were expensively and noisily done. And there's been a helluva realignment by Fort York. Apparently to some folks, that stuff was all freebies.
I guess we're supposed to just add all that and the new track onto everyone's tax account, drop the airport fares to …, what? $3.00? Well no one's actually saying, but it seems we're s'posed to just find the money. Maybe by cutting even more services. For everyone else but airport-goers on their new train, so their taxes won't have to go up while they enjoy their almost-free ride.
TANSTAAFL
I often use GO bus service from York Mills Station to Pearson ... $5.70 one way adult fare ... or get someone to drive me!
Yea you're right
I know you are just trying to protect your hand in that there SNC pocket,
I mean anyone can clearly see how every public transit project costs 4 to 6x its original and thats is OK - someones getting some cushion. hah.
Since you must know - got a link to the budget or even a spreadsheet - at to how the costs were derived?
And how about some documents showing how the longterm lease price of the 407 was computed?
Sorry, I've got not involvement in the UP project, nor do I, nor have I ever been involved with SNC Lavalin. (Who originally were going to design, build, finance the project in what has become affectionately known as P3 partnerships, which seldom work. When the SNC daydream fell apart, the entire project was mandated to Metrolinx to complete and bring to fruition.)
You make me laugh because you are woefully ignorant of how infrastructure is built and like so many other ignorant people think that "the politicians" are to blame and somehow there is graft or corruption in there.
Let me give you the Coles Notes version of how public infrastructure is built in Canada and Ontario and Toronto.
1. The politicians come up with a want (maybe it's a new subway, or LRT, or it's a railway to the airport)
2. Purchasing will put out a Request for Proposals to qualified Engineering Consultants (like SNC, or AECOM, or Hatch, or AMEC, or any number of firms.) to do a "study" for discussion purposes. At this time, some very preliminary budgets are conjured up. Unfortunately, fools often think that this is what it should cost and fools will bray away about infrastructure projects being 4 times over budget because they use the initial budgets that were based on no design whatsoever to say that everything is over budget by 400 percent.
3. Next step is the Environmental Assessment. Again, invite qualified firms, or publically tender, but again the lowest bidder is selected to do the work. The Environmental Assessment takes forever and it does exactly what its name implies - looks at the impacts to the environment and establishes the criteria that the final design must have. At this time, there are usually several alternative designs concepts (not detailed design) drawn up and again, cost estimates are put together.
5. Next step is Preliminary Design. Again, invite qualified firms, or publically tender, but again, lowest bidder is selected. A preferred design will be selected and again project costs are estimated, this time with some greater accuracy, but in no way completely accurate.
6. Next step is Detailed Design producing tender drawings and specs suitable for tendering to construction by qualified Contractors. Again, lowest bidder is selected. (There is no second prize by the way.) At this time, a final design is detailed. It can be thousands of drawings and a spec a metre thick. At this time, an Engineer's cost estimate will be put together. A good Engineer will put together a cost estimate that should rank him Number 2 or 3 when the construction tenders come in.
7. Tender for Construction. Again, low bid gets the job. Prices should be equal or less than the Engineer's estimate done in step 6, but often times they are actually higher because Contractors know more about pricing a job than Engineers. This should be "THE BUDGET" for the job, not the budget that was arrived at in stage 1 which fools always get hung up on.
8. Construction proceeds and yes, there are ALWAYS extra costs. The question is how much extra. If you have a damn good Engineer in Step 6, and I mean DAMN GOOD (and they are out there, but unfortunately, they are usually not the lowest bid), your final construction cost should be within 10 percent of your budget. If you have a design that is full of holes and mistakes, the sky is the limit in terms of extra costs.
So through it all mon ami, the lowest bid gets the job.
So tell me, please, enlighten me, as to how the politicians are somehow responsible for cost over runs?
Everything and I mean everything is publically tendered with low bid getting the job. Politicians do not hand out contracts to their buddies despite public perception to the contrary.
All of the above can take years, even decades and the reason it takes so long is that because the public has to be consulted at ever step of the process and that takes time.
The Georgetown line that is being use was the CNR Weston subdivision at one time. The part from Union Station to just north of the airport (I'm not sure of this) was sold to GO Transit a few years back because there was more GO traffic on the line than freight. The Weston sub was a single track that ran up from Union Station through Weston (go figure), out to Georgetown and beyond. The portion from Union Station to around Toronto West Junction was initially purchased by GO because there was either no or almost no freight train traffic (CN moves freight, GO moves people. Previously, GO had been leasing running rights on the CN Weston Subdivision (along with other subs) rather than own the track.) The lower Weston was in pretty sad shape because CN wasn't putting any money into it because CN was moving little to no freight.
Anyway, GO bought the Weston Sub.
It was a single track in a pre-existing corridor with much of the infrastructure being really old.
So now you want to run a train to the airport every 15 minutes.
So tell me buddy, how do you do that?
You've got one old track, and you want airport express trains moving every 15 minutes in both directions between YYZ and Union Station. Now add on top of that, you've got GO Trains coming in on the Georgetown line every 30 minutes in the morning from 5 a.m. to 10 a.m. then starting again at 3 p.m. to 8 p.m.
Between all of that, you've also got several VIA trains coming into Toronto from the west throughout the day and night.
Between that, CN does run freight trains north of Toronto West Junction during the day and night.
AND, just to make it even more fun, you've got the diamond at Toronto West Junction where that single track (the Weston Sub) crosses the CPR (note, that's CPR, not CNR) main lines (there are 4 of them at 2 different locations) that lead from Montreal to Toronto to Vancouver. There's CPR freight trains every hour a mile long going at 25 MPH and the CPR tracks cross the Weston Sub. Ask anyone whose ever taken the GO Train from Georgetown how many times that GO Train has had to stop in the middle of the track at Toronto West Junction and wait for a CPR freight to go by.
So tell me buddy, how are you supposed to move an airport express train every 15 minutes (or even every hour for that matter) through all of that, and on just one track to boot???
Okay, I started this thread and it seems to have turned into a political debate.
All I was trying to say was 28 bucks seems very high to me when you consider two things:
1) how much it cost in contrast to other rail systems in the GTA such as TTC and GO. Doesn't really matter to me how much it cost to built, at the end of the day that's a lot to pay for a short rail ride to the airport which is a good Segway to my next point...
2) I would have to pay another 6 bucks to get myself to Union (3 for York region fare and 3 for TTC), so I'm up to 34 bucks. I would rather pay an extra 10 bucks (yes you find flate rate 45 bucks to the airport, trust me) not to drag my sorry ass to all the way to Union with my luggage, and have a taxi pick me up at the comfort of my home, and that's ONLY I CAN'T FIND a friend to give me a drive which usually isn't a problem for me.
So my point being, if they want to compete, this are really high rates.
All I was trying to say was 28 bucks seems very high to me when you consider two things:
1) how much it cost in contrast to other rail systems in the GTA such as TTC and GO. Doesn't really matter to me how much it cost to built, at the end of the day that's a lot to pay for a short rail ride to the airport which is a good Segway to my next point...
2) I would have to pay another 6 bucks to get myself to Union (3 for York region fare and 3 for TTC), so I'm up to 34 bucks. I would rather pay an extra 10 bucks (yes you find flate rate 45 bucks to the airport, trust me) not to drag my sorry ass to all the way to Union with my luggage, and have a taxi pick me up at the comfort of my home, and that's ONLY I CAN'T FIND a friend to give me a drive which usually isn't a problem for me.
So my point being, if they want to compete, this are really high rates.
"They" don't want to compete.
The people behind this plan have been on vacation to Europe and came back determined that it would work here. Then politicians got on board to sound good. Then a Not-for_Profit and the rest of the NGO/Swivel Servant parasite industry had to make it happen.
To do so in this political climate in Canada (where the governments are more interested in social engineering etc than in public infrastructure) requires all of these things to make money or at least pay for themselves immediately.
So, $29 is likely as close to that number and the "pain threshold" of some members of the downtown public and visitors to the city.
The fare will probably skyrocket to an actual cost to provide the service of $60 per rider when consumers vote with their wallets not to ride and the train has to run every 15 minutes, empty or not, anyways to maintain its credibility.
Add in the fact that the world is changing so fast that things like Car2Go (who now have one-way airport rentals and Airport Parking), Uber, and I'm sure some true "ride sharing" app that will come along etc and this train is going to be a massive multi-billion dollar boondoggle.
The people behind this plan have been on vacation to Europe and came back determined that it would work here. Then politicians got on board to sound good. Then a Not-for_Profit and the rest of the NGO/Swivel Servant parasite industry had to make it happen.
To do so in this political climate in Canada (where the governments are more interested in social engineering etc than in public infrastructure) requires all of these things to make money or at least pay for themselves immediately.
So, $29 is likely as close to that number and the "pain threshold" of some members of the downtown public and visitors to the city.
The fare will probably skyrocket to an actual cost to provide the service of $60 per rider when consumers vote with their wallets not to ride and the train has to run every 15 minutes, empty or not, anyways to maintain its credibility.
Add in the fact that the world is changing so fast that things like Car2Go (who now have one-way airport rentals and Airport Parking), Uber, and I'm sure some true "ride sharing" app that will come along etc and this train is going to be a massive multi-billion dollar boondoggle.
I've been around the neighbourhood a bit over the last few years.
The train builds are massive, the structures to build the rail bridges major works with the footings drillings shaking houses in the area for years on end.
It certainly hasn't just been a process of buying some train cars and putting them on the tracks.
Since UPX isn't even in business yet and no one else offers anything like closely comparable service, isn't it a bit early to judge competitiveness? For that you have to consider two things, if you're setting up a downtown-airport highspeed rail link:
1) How big is our potential market, and who else serves those folks at what price?
2) If we're in the same ballpark on price, do we have a decent shot at staying in business and turning a profit?
Bottom line: Tinker and tweak to find that sweet spot, first time as a guess. Again (and again) once you have real customers.
I doubt they care about you or me dragging our sorry asses to Union, but they'll be very happy to have a few hundred or thousand of the hundred thou or so tower-workers around Bay St consider a stroll through the PATH instead of cabbing to the bottom of Bathurst to tunnel over to Porter. World-wide I think it's incoming travelers who are the biggest users of airport links, not local residents who are much too wise-ass about prices and availability of more convenient modes of travel. We aren't the target market; they're after sheep who are happy to be fleeced.
Besides, we already have a really low-cost transit system to take us to Pearson for just $3.00. Or vote to up your taxes and we can buy whatever low-price you want on the UPX, the same way.
As for the actual dollar-number: I believe it got to $27.50 because the GTAA (which has only one airport to fleece) added a coupla bucks per passenger to what it charges UPX for 'landing rights'. Like UPX, they're a business we taxpayers own, but don't want to be taxed to pay for.
The biggest job was the construction of the Toronto West Diamond Grade Separation at Davenport and Mulock (roughly). Just the bridge was 500 million and the pilings and foundation work was another 500 million. When you look at it now, it's not that huge of a deal, but it took 6 years to build and they drove hundreds (maybe thousands) of pipe piles.
Incredible stuff.
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