Unemployment rate falls to 4.7 pct

[someone]

My CFP would argue the Central Banks use the core CPI not for that reason, but because it provides the argument du jour... a reason to keep interest rates low. In past Central Banks have employed the other indexes.

I don't know what CFP refers to but in Canada it was John Crow that started using the core CPI for inflation targetting (the American Fed has not adopted inflation targetting so their situation would be a bit different). It is hard to argue that John Crow went out of his way to keep interest rates low.

No, but I guess I could use the rents are charge in a small apartment building I own. CPI uses rents as figures to factor in real estate instead of the broad or whole residential real estate market in general. This greatly diminishes the truth about cost of living. That was my point.

Although I’m not saying that you might not have a point in general, given that we were talking about poverty and except for places like Atlantic Canada, Indian Reserves, etc (and whatever the American equivalents would be when it comes to poor who own their own homes), I can’t see there being that many poor people who are not renters. Moroever, there are several factors that work in the opposite direction and make the CPI an underestimate of the effects of inflation.

Edit: I’m not sure about the U.S. but in Canada, when the poverty rate is cited in the press, it generally refers to Statistics Canada’s low income cut off. That measures the number of people who spend more than a given proportion of their income on food, housing etc. Thus, I’m not sure the CPI is really important. If the prices of housing, food, extra goes up, you would expect the proportion of poor spending more than that percentage of their income on these items to increase, regardless of whether the CPI is accurately measuring the increase in prices. If I recall correctly the Americans have a different why of measuring the proverty rate but I don't recall it off hand and I'm too lazy to look it up. For information on the Canadian system see http://www.ccsd.ca/pubs/archive/fb94/fs_povbk.htm

Second edit: BTW, one problem with this method of measuring poverty is that it is difficult to make comparisons over time. The poor could be much better off in absolute terms than the past, but if they are still spending 20% more of their income on necessities than the average Canadian, they are still counted as being in poverty.

 

[21pro]

I can’t see there being that many poor people who are not renters. .

I agree with many of the points you made. However, I read in Canadian MoneySaver magazine that the largest segment of senior citizens are in the above quoted category of poverish homeowners and the %age is growing at an alarming rate.

I agree it's important to study Canada's poor. However, being a streetkid at one time myself- I can say we have many more amenities available to the worst of the worst in terms of poverish people than any country I have ever visited.

 

[someone]

I agree it's important to study Canada's poor. However, being a streetkid at one time myself- I can say we have many more amenities available to the worst of the worst in terms of poverish people than any country I have ever visited.

No arguement from me.

 

[onthebottom]

Sorry OTB to burst your bubble - the US drops people of the employment rolls as not looking for work. Look at the stat that shows the number of people no looking for work - you can lower the Unemployment number greatly with that and I suspect that has been done for political purpose.

This economy sucks if you make less than 30,000 US - unemployment is high in this group and inflation in energy is killing this group.

I have to wonder about this boom you talk about when 2,500 people show up for a new Walmart store - doesn't give me much confidence.

It is possible to have a boom tailored made for the rich and I think this economy reflects that.

I think the late Sen. Loyd Benson said it best "Anyone can make an economy boom with a trillion dollars worth of hot checks."

Anyways having said that, the US stocks I own are doing great - but I do worry about a Housing bubble that has largely been used as a vast credit card. Funny thing about owing money - there always a Tony Soprano to collect.



bbk

A post unencumbered with facts but heavy on unsubstantiated assertion. Nicely done class warrior.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Once again we're not focusing on the same issues. I'm saying
that our educational system is failing our needs. And your cost
comparison is totally off base.

This article appeared in today's [9/7/06] Cleveland Plain Dealer

http://www.cleveland.com/education/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/isedu/1576287089510.xml&coll=2

The full report is at: http://www.highereducation.org

I couldn't get the plaindealer link to work but the full report link did work.

You have failed to substantiate the point that "our educational system is failing our needs", if you look at your above link you will see that the international comparison is still favorable for the US.

A quick summary of the report is that higher education has become
less affordable since the early 90s. The percent of family income
needed to pay net college costs at an Ohio public 4 year institution
has gone from 28% to 42%.

Your cost at Ohio State only covers tuition. It doesn't factor
in 9 months of room, board, books, etc. Add those costs in
and you approach $16K/yr. Figures don't lie, liers figure.
Lets deal with all the facts.

Room, board, books are what they are, you have to live somewhere and eat no matter where you go to school (or don't). Tuition is the incremental cost of higher education and $8,600 before loans and financial assistance (if we're talking about poor students) is a farking bargain. Is education expensive, yes it is (I have a love hate relationship with my daughter applying to Stanford, I love the opportunity it would give her, I hate the 60k a year...), does it pay for itself, clearly. I would love to see the US spend more on financial aid and tax breaks for parents paying the bills because I think there is a huge financial and human return from education. This is why I've never carped about the NCLB education spending spree that Bush has been on.

When are you going to admit Bush was wrong on the
noncombatant prisoners and the Geneva Accords?

Was he wrong, send me the link and I'll admit it.

Yes, the Tribe sucks.
Wait until next year.

Didn't I hear that last year when they moon walked out of the wildcard slot?

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

I know. If you hit the top link it will take you to the article.
There's been a series on this issue. The fact is that if you're
family income is at the low end of the middle class your child's
chances to go to college dramatically drops off. But, the
upper end middle class children are going to college in large
numbers. There's a 3 to 1 disparity ration for the upper vs
lower middle class. America is losing its egalitarian reputation.
Its becoming more and more an elite country.

I still hold to $16K/annum since I had one daughter graduate
from Miami of Ohio 4 years back and her total costs were
$12-13K/yr. And my youngest just graduated from Bowling
Green with a $16K/yr price tag.

Miami of Ohio (a very good school) is private and very expensive - face it, you can get a Big 10 education (like I have) for less than 10k a year. I paid $250 a quarter my first year at the University of Minnesota and $750 the last year. You could say that during my 4 years education increased 300% but it was still cheap - at 8,600 it still is.

Lower middle class is tough, too rich for aid too poor to pay the bills. It’s this group I would support tax credits for.

I graduated lifetimes ago from John Carroll, a private, Jesuit
college in Cleveland [Tim Russert is an alum] - that tuition
is now $34K/yr. I paid $2K/year. No loans, no parents, just
working in factories. You can't do that any more.

No, we're screwing our grandchildren's lives.

Ask a Canadian what it costs to go to one of their
4 year colleges.

A Canadian friend of mine jokes that the best school in Canada is 5,000 a year and the worst school in Canada is 5,000 a year. I don't have any data other than that.

That’s what the SCOTUS ruled; also, they're drafting new laws
in the Congress at this very moment to deal with this issue.
Come on, that brain dead defense won't work this time.

I thought they ruled the POTUS didn't have the right to order Military Tribunals, I don't remember that impacting the Geneva convention issue but I could be wrong.

OTB

 

[new2game]

OTB...I'm gonna guess...

I would disagree:

"Wages registered a second sizable increase, rising at an annual rate of 4.9 percent in the second quarter, up from an initial estimate of a 4.2 percent increase" from the AP

While it is true there are fewer Union jobs the economy is growing both robustly and at a sustainable level.

OTB

....That you are part of the upper 10% in income.....a part of the upper class, probably pullin in a deep 6 figures income....because only someone that high up in the stratoshpere could spew out the figures that you do and take them as reality. Rather than hob knobbing with upper crust people, see how the average working person is living...people that have given decades of their lives to companies...only to be tossed aside like yesterdays garbage in today's world of downsizing ,corporate greed and global competition. Meet some of those people, see whether their lives are flourishing in this "robust" economy. All smoke and mirrors. The middle class in getting killed by the higher costs of housing, education and energy...wages are not keeping pace, and certainly there are thousands of excellent paying jobs being lost each month..and these new jobs are not paying the same scale. I still stand by my "Mcjobs " statement.
This next generation is going to be the first ones in a long time where they are not going to be able to live financially better than their parents...

N2G

 

[someone]

Ask a Canadian what it costs to go to one of their
4 year colleges.

We don’t really have “four year colleges”. Indeed, in Canada the term “colleges” generally refers to what are called “community colleges” which are sort of like trade schools. However, I’ve posted a link, below that gives you an indication of university tuition.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040902/d040902a.htm

BTW, making comparisons is not straight forward as there is a lot more variance in terms of quality in the U.S. An American Nobel prize winner named Kenneth Arrow once said that the United States would be well represented on both a list of the top 10 universities in the world and a list the bottom 10 universities in the world. Moreover, even a lot of the top American schools don’t have very rigorous undergraduate programs (they tend to have very good graduate programs and top researchers but dumb down their undergraduate programs)

OTB has a point when he says that there is not much of a relationship between quality and tuition in Canada. There is variance in both but I have not seen much of a correlation between the two. However, I suspect that the same is true in the U.S.

 

[onthebottom]

....That you are part of the upper 10% in income.....a part of the upper class, probably pullin in a deep 6 figures income....because only someone that high up in the stratoshpere could spew out the figures that you do and take them as reality. Rather than hob knobbing with upper crust people, see how the average working person is living...people that have given decades of their lives to companies...only to be tossed aside like yesterdays garbage in today's world of downsizing ,corporate greed and global competition. Meet some of those people, see whether their lives are flourishing in this "robust" economy. All smoke and mirrors. The middle class in getting killed by the higher costs of housing, education and energy...wages are not keeping pace, and certainly there are thousands of excellent paying jobs being lost each month..and these new jobs are not paying the same scale. I still stand by my "Mcjobs " statement.
This next generation is going to be the first ones in a long time where they are not going to be able to live financially better than their parents...

N2G

So you favor your anecdotal experience over data..... now we know why you're not in the top 10% (how much do you have to make to be in the top 10%?). While you're accurate as to my current financial situation I grew up in a lower middle class family, was the first in my family to attend University (with 45k of my closest friends), I have friends and family at every economic level.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

We don’t really have “four year colleges”. Indeed, in Canada the term “colleges” generally refers to what are called “community colleges” which are sort of like trade schools. However, I’ve posted a link, below that gives you an indication of university tuition.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040902/d040902a.htm

BTW, making comparisons is not straight forward as there is a lot more variance in terms of quality in the U.S. An American Nobel prize winner named Kenneth Arrow once said that the United States would be well represented on both a list of the top 10 universities in the world and a list the bottom 10 universities in the world. Moreover, even a lot of the top American schools don’t have very rigorous undergraduate programs (they tend to have very good graduate programs and top researchers but dumb down their undergraduate programs)

OTB has a point when he says that there is not much of a relationship between quality and tuition in Canada. There is variance in both but I have not seen much of a correlation between the two. However, I suspect that the same is true in the U.S.

The variation down here is driven more by funding model (public Universities vs private) than quality. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford...... are expensive (as is Miami of Ohio) and are some of the best in the world, but large public Universities like University of Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio State also have excellent programs at a fraction of the cost. I don't know about the bottom 10, but with as many collages and universities as we have you could be right.

OTB

 

[new2game]

Hey OTB...

...yea, I'll take my experiences over your skewered data any day of the week, because at the end of the day, what really matters is what goes on in my neighbourhood...that comes first. And as fortunate as I have been to carve out an excellent upper middle class lifestyle,others around me have not. Is it because I am smarter than them??....better educated???...better able to take advantage of these so-called economic opportunities that you see out there through your statistics??...no, a lot has to do with situations, circumstances,some beyond one's control and a little bit of luck..Put your stats down for a while and walk through the real world..the one you say you came from ,OTB...you'll find how warped your stats are...

N2G

 

[onthebottom]

...yea, I'll take my experiences over your skewered data any day of the week, because at the end of the day, what really matters is what goes on in my neighbourhood...that comes first. And as fortunate as I have been to carve out an excellent upper middle class lifestyle,others around me have not. Is it because I am smarter than them??....better educated???...better able to take advantage of these so-called economic opportunities that you see out there through your statistics??...no, a lot has to do with situations, circumstances,some beyond one's control and a little bit of luck..Put your stats down for a while and walk through the real world..the one you say you came from ,OTB...you'll find how warped your stats are...

N2G

I agree with you game but to be fair to OTB the numbers he views are selective and skewed politically. Many changes on how economic data is reported have been made to several key statistics by the Bush Administration prior to the 2004 election. Unfortunately those stats made a rosier picture of things before that election and while the economy improved after the election, the numbers reported today overstate the economic reality.

While OTB will demand substance, I guess I could pull up stats no one will read, including OTB, it is suffice to say that the middle class in the US is not doing as well as people like the POTUS or OTB would lead you to think. This is normal for a downturn as it is the middle class that is the first to feel an economic downturn, who in turn make it deeper by not spending. The skewed numbers from 2004 will not reflect this reality for another 6 to 10 months.

Let OTB trump these numbers, after all it's people like him that are not convinced that a recession has occurred until 6 months after the fact.



bbk

LOL, you guys crack me up – what was that term DQ used… Cognitive Dissonance?

Keep telling yourself the sky is falling, I’m sure it will help, the rest of us have a living to earn.

OTB

 

[someone]

I don't really like using education attainment satistics as the easiest way to boost them is to dumb down programs (as many American universities and highschools seem to do, as do some of their Canadian conterparts). However, using that creteria the following compares the U.S. to other nations based on a recent OECD report. It also discusses the cost of not being educated in the U.S. (which I think is, in part, DQ's concern) It may be of interest to some debating here

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060912.wuseduc0912/BNStory/National/

For some Canadian content about the same OECD report

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060912.w2oecd0912/BNStory/National/

 

[onthebottom]

...so this means you have nothing intelligent to add, so you have to resort this crap. Hmmm I wouldn't have thought you would be lost for some intelligent but wrong thinking.

Lets see what the next year brings and we will see who's right.



bbk

Pot calling kettle......

I'm making my arguments with facts and stats, you guys are looking around and spouting class warfare clichés....

OTB