With Russian mobilization lots of Russians want to leave the country to avoid being the canon meat in the war that they did not want to be on the first place. Anyone who speaks against the war are mobilized and sent to to war right away. And what the Russia's neighbouring countries do? Do they help these people to avoid being killed? Do they want to accept them as refuges? On contrary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, and Poland closed their borders with Russia and do not let Russian people to get in even when they have visas. Yes, Germany is willing to accept Russian refugees: but, conveniently for Germany, it has no land border with Russia and no flights from Russia now.
Ukraine war, Russian mobilization, and Western hypocrisy
- Thread starter fall
- Start date
It is hypocrisy not to accept refugees who do not want to serve in Putin's army, kill Ukrainians and got killed themselves.
And why would they accept them? Those Russians were perfectly fine with the state of things until now. Only when Putin put their asses on the line they discovered their antipathy toward their homeland. Screw the principals free deserters. Maybe Justin can rescue them or they can fly to Mexico and walk through the open border into the USA.
And how did you arrived to a conclusion that these Russians were fine with war before mobilization? I have family and friends back in Russia and their sentiments varies from "the war is bad, but I will try not to thin about it" to "Putin is a madman who need to be replaced ASAP". Noone I know supported the war, but, again, I do not really know any "white trash" people. Some of my friends participated in anti-government demonstration in the past, but not now when it is very dangerous. And how the West helped anti-government movement? Remember huge demonstration in 2012? People went to jail for very long time. (5-10 years). Remember Navalniy? West is willing to help only if it is not a major inconvenience to them. Even now they are not willing to give the modern arms to Ukraine and are not willing to push on China and India and allowed Iran-made drones to be shipped to Russia. And what about North Korea and Cuba? Why these governments still exists? Why not actively try to help people living there get out? There is an old joke "Why U.S. attacked Iraq but not North Korea? Because North Korea DOES have the weapons of mass destruction". If the West were willing to stop Putin, they would be able to do it, but, instead, they only care about their own asses.
There are 1.2 MILLION Ukrainian refugees in Poland alone at this very moment. Just think about that number. And thousands upon thousands in other countries. This is the greatest displacement of humanity in Europe since the end of the WWII. I apologize if I can't work up any sympathy for the Russian call ups. Putin didn't happen yesterday, he has been around in charge of Russia for decades, decades they could have used to press for change or leave- just as I and hundreds of thousands others did in the last half century. But, this, this is just a flight of fear. Sorry, try Finland or Turkey.
People did try to press for change, like in 2012. The ones who tried a lot went to prison, the others who tried less lost their jobs. It is hard to immigrate if you have no money, do not know English, and have a family. It is hard to protest when you have a family to feed. Yes, Putin did not happen in a single day - he started in 2008 (he was tolerable before that and West was OK with him). However, slowly the internal terror intensified, the freedoms of 1990s were taken away, and West did absolutely nothing to help people inside Russia who wanted the change. So, now they got a war. And instead of helping people in Russia to do anything, they just push them inside the Putin's army. What West did to help Navalny? What they did to help people arrested in 2012? What they do now to help people who got arrested during anti-was demonstration and sent to war? How hard was it to kill Putin during his meeting with Chinese and Indian leaders in Uzbekistan a few days ago? It was not in a bunker in Moscow, it was in Uzbekistan!!! You did not need to find him as was the case with Bin Laden - everyone knew where he was. Chinese and Indian economies cannot survive on their own - why not push harder to stop their help to Russia. Hell, why not give the Ukraine the weapons they need to finally stop this war? The slower West will deal with Putin, the more expensive it will be. They could have easily dealt with him in 2012, relatively inexpensive in 2014, prevent the war by putting NATO troops in place in Ukraine in January 2022. Now, they can still prevent a nuclear war by killing people and giving needed weapons to Ukraine and let it go for the targets inside Russia. If the West will still do nothing, in a few month Putin will use tactic nuclear weapons in Ukraine.
The Russian Constitution clearly states killing the Rusian Head of State is cause for a Nuclear launch. Are you nuts?
If it was that easy then why don't Russian dissentents do it?
Do you think Russian constitution plays any role in Russian government decision making? Or maybe you believe that Russian laws are respected and followed in Russia? Are you nuts?
And it is easy for a military with the right equipment, not for a man with a gun.
It might for who takes over after he is gone. Killing a head of state issued an act of war. And sets a precident. This isnt killing Hussain or Quaddafi. And remember in theory is was their own that did it. Using the military to kill Putin is just plain suicidal.
That's WWIII grade stupidity.
The best solution is for Russians themselves to take care of Putin. Nobody bordering Russia wants to take in Russians because if they do then they open themselves to Putin's excuses for more pre-emptive war to protect ethnic Russians. If this war is ever over and Putin is still in power, I think you will see many countries bordering Russia evict Russians back to Russia.
None of this is purely against Russians, it is a move against Putin. If Putin and his ilk are taken care of then I can see the world rushing back to drink up the cheap gas from Russia and Russia will rush back to supplying the world with cheap gas. You have buyers wanting to get with the sellers and vice versa but in between them is a giant asshole.
None of this is purely against Russians, it is a move against Putin. If Putin and his ilk are taken care of then I can see the world rushing back to drink up the cheap gas from Russia and Russia will rush back to supplying the world with cheap gas. You have buyers wanting to get with the sellers and vice versa but in between them is a giant asshole.
Yep, as I said, west is worried about its own ass. But what they do is just postponing the necessary treatment and the longer they postpone, the costlier it will be for them If they want Russians to take care of Putin themselves, they need to help to do so. You cannot expect unorganized civilians to overthought a government that are willing to kill just for a hint of a protest. In addition, West still pays Russia for oil and gas. And not doing anything with Iran after they supplied drones to Russian army a month ago really speaks volume of how little West is willing to do.
Like this guy says. Russians didn't give a shit about the Ukraine. Were quite happy to let the rape, torture, genocide and destruction happen, as long as it didn't involve them. Now they are facing the prospect of having to go there and experience their war, they are heading to the airports in droves.
Friedman: Russians rebel against Putin's mobilization | Watch (msn.com)
Although I am listening to Fall's arguments which make sense.
Just the general optics and initial reaction is that it pisses one off to see Russians of draft age flooding the airports and fleeing Russia to find safety in the West. No doubt if things improve back home, they will be happy to return in droves when it is safe for them.
Friedman: Russians rebel against Putin's mobilization | Watch (msn.com)
Although I am listening to Fall's arguments which make sense.
Just the general optics and initial reaction is that it pisses one off to see Russians of draft age flooding the airports and fleeing Russia to find safety in the West. No doubt if things improve back home, they will be happy to return in droves when it is safe for them.
Last edited:
And you are an example of what is wrong with the society today. You want to generalize a lot. What you expect Russian civilians to do? They cannot fight Putin's special forces and police. They are not even allowed to express their opinion about the war without getting long prison sentences. And how West helps them? How West helped the brave Russians who tried to stand up against Putin for the last 10 years? They all ended up in prison or got killed and West did nothing about it. And after the war starts, did West accept Russian refugees? Sorry, but it is the West turn to act. They have the means, but they are not even willing to send needed arms to Ukraine, I am not talking about deploying the troops. And still paying Russia for gas and oil? Not putting enough pressure on China? Allowing Iran to sell Russia drones?
Last edited:
So herevis the thing. The russian people can fight back. How did the Russians get rid of the Czars? The Chinese the Mandarins? The Americans the British? On and on.
What you expect is the West to pay in blood and treasure. But the only way it can work and stay is if its done internally. Any external direct action delegitimizes the next govt. Sorry but thats the reality.
Hate to say it or not but once again, pointed out in this with Matthew Chance. Thousands of men of draft age are fleeing. Didn't give a shit about the killing going on in Ukraine, as long as it didn't affect them. Now they want out. The gut reaction is fuckem. Send them back. Why should we play host to them?I think we've all had enough of Russians for now. These thousands of young men didn't show any courage protesting the war.
Last edited:
How Russian gt rid of Czars? Three things: (1) It was not such totalitarian regime as now, (2) The police ability to control what people are doing was much lower, and, most importantly, (3) lots of help from Germans
.Any suggestions on how it can be done internally?
