Ufc 111 St.Pierre vs Hardy

[dj1470]

To the TERB MMA fan masses: thoughts on the Palhares suspension? And if so, then what about a suspension for Shane Carwin for repeatedly punching a prone and unconscious Frank Mir in the back of the head? Or better yet, suspensions for the two officials involved in these matches? Discuss amongst yourselves....

Palhares deserves the suspension. He torqued the knee after the ref conceded the tapout.
Ref did nothing wrong in this situation. It's this type of crap that keeps places like Ontario from sanctioning MMA.

Carwin punched Mir in the back of the head? When? Answer is never.
Ref stopped that fight due to "Mir not defending himself intelligently".
There were no illegal punches.

 

[dj1470]

Georges St. Pierre is turning into a modified "lay and pray" specialist.

Sorry but this statement is idiotic.
GSP tried everything to finish Hardy.
He constantly changed positions, tried submssions, tried ground&pound, etc.
Hardy is just one tough SOB that wouldn't be finished.
Comments like this are what Joe Rogan refers to as the "MMA-fan meathead population".
You know the idiots who BOO during events after one minute when a KO doesn't happen quickly so they can twitter it.

 

[basketcase]

In some cases, we would have seen a ref jump in earlier to stop the fight with Mir but I felt he was still trying to defend himself until he was flat on his stomach. Being a title fight I'm not surprised it didn't have an early stoppage. I also don't think that Carwin did anything wrong. He kept throwing until the ref stopped it which is exactly what he should do.

On GSP, he dominated but it was a bit boring.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Palhares deserves the suspension. He torqued the knee after the ref conceded the tapout. Ref did nothing wrong in this situation. It's this type of crap that keeps places like Ontario from sanctioning MMA.

Carwin punched Mir in the back of the head? When? Answer is never. Ref stopped that fight due to "Mir not defending himself intelligently". There were no illegal punches.

I agree that Rousimar Palhares deserves to be fined/and or suspended. My point was that I can understand how he could have zoned out and kept the hold on. And the referee was slow to react and not forceful enough. (Remember when John McCarthy bloodied a fighter one time trying to save another defenceless one? That's precisely what a ref needs to do at times. It's a disgrace that UFC and NSAC continue to blacklist Big John.)

What I find interesting is that there appears to be a double standard. BJ Penn kept a choke on well after the ref stopped the rematch with Jens Pulver and was not even reprimanded. There have been other examples, including blows after a ref stoppage (Rampage vs. Silva) and yet this and Renato Sobral holding a choke on David Heath after the ref stepped in (and even admitted he did so intentionally, saying "he (Heath) has to learn respect. He deserved that. He called me 'motherfucker'.") are the only examples of punishment meted out afterwards.

The reason for Palhares' suspension is simple: UFC is still lobbying New York. The fight was across the river from NYC. They had NY state officials watching the matches and were trying to put on a good impression... even with Dana still dropping f-bombs every second word.

Re-watch the Mir-Carwin fight through a neutral lens while understanding the Unified Rules on the subject: "the back of the head is considered the direct center of the head with an inch of tolerance to either side" of the ears with either a mohawk or headphone shape being the line of delineation.

After the initial series of uppercuts, Carwin clearly struck Mir in the back of the head repeatedly both before and after he was out and "not defending himself intelligently."

And again, I ask, why did Mir have to absorb 5-6 more shots (at least 2-3 of which were to the back of the head) while already out cold? Dan Miragliotta moved in before that point but chose not to stop the fight until after it was too late. THAT is what is going to cause MMA not to be sanctioned in Ontario and New York - particularly if someone is maimed or killed. And a monster like Carwin has the ability to kill a man with his punches, particularly to the back of the head of a defenceless opponent. Negligently bad refereeing.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Sorry but this statement is idiotic. GSP tried everything to finish Hardy. He constantly changed positions, tried submssions, tried ground&pound, etc. Hardy is just one tough SOB that wouldn't be finished. Comments like this are what Joe Rogan refers to as the "MMA-fan meathead population". You know the idiots who BOO during events after one minute when a KO doesn't happen quickly so they can twitter it.

Whoop-dee-damn-do. He changed positions and did nothing. A couple of weak choke attempts, a sloppy armbar and a kimura that he didn't commit to finish. What ground and pound? Barely a mark on Hardy's face. GSP's corner practically BEGGED him to G'n'P more. Other than a handful of half-assed attempts at technically sloppy submissions, he did nothing to try and finish the fight.

Sorry, he did not try "everything." He wanted a tap out but was simply not good enough to pull it off without setting up the submissions with striking, ground and pound, etc. His BJJ is not at a high enough level to do so. Instead of busting Hardy up with punches and elbows from the guard, half-guard, side mount and mount, he tried muscling submissions that he is not slick enough to pull off.

This coming from a guy that loves GSP and the leaps and bounds he's made as a fighter. But that was a putrid performance in what is becoming a trend. There was no torn abductor to blame this time.

 

[The Oracle]

Dan Miragliotta is perhaps the worst official in the business right now. Steve Mazagatti and Yves Lavigne are also prone to some terrible decisions.

The best ref out there is John McCarthy but because of bad politics between him and Dana we won't see him anytime soon.

Last night Mir was clearly out and Miragliotta let him get drilled in the side of the head a number of times too long. Please lets get him out of reffing before a serious injury occurs.

Palhares deserves the suspension as he held on for at least 4-5 seconds after his opponent tapped repeatedly. Don't give me this ''zone'' crap. You can feel when your rival is tapping. Because your waiting for it.

Renato Sobral did the same thing a few years ago and he was cut from the UFC. The difference was that he stupidly admitted it after the fight.

 

[The Oracle]

Instead of busting Hardy up with punches and elbows from the guard, half-guard, side mount and mount, he tried muscling submissions that he is not slick enough to pull off.

.

Gsp said the same thing in the press conference after the fight

 

[Captain Fantastic]

I agree, except that it was not 4-5 seconds. The "count" they did on the show last night was when they were showing it is slow motion. It was about 2-3 seconds. Referee Kevin Mulhall did a terrible job - he just was in the wrong position and did not anticipate what was happening. The good ones like John McCarthy and Herb Dean almost always get that part of MMA reffing right.

I stated that Palhares should be suspended (Drwal was screaming in pain on top of tapping), but I will stand by the fact that the fighter's job is to hold the submission until the referee breaks them up. Not anticipate or wait for your opponent's tap out. Think Randy Couture-Tito Ortiz. Randy "spanking" Tito could have been construed a tapout by Ortiz, who could not even see Couture from where he was. Again, having practiced BJJ for quite a while, you don't always know if you've "got" a guy and don't always feel the tap, particularly in competition. Mulhall (the ref) blew it as much as Palhares and should also be suspended. It's the only way the referees get better too.

PS - Steve Mazzagatti is the worst, followed by Dan Miragliotta, Yves Lavigne and Kevin Mulhall - on the big fight cards anyway - some of the small promotions... <shudder>

 

[The Oracle]

but I will stand by the fact that the fighter's job is to hold the submission until the referee breaks them up.

The same argument has been used when striking an opponent. To keep hitting your foe until the ref stops you.

However when Nate Marquardt had Maia knocked out we didn't see him land the Dan Henderson like bomb that he could of.

Marquardt showed respect for his opponent and I appreciate his sportsmanship.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

The same argument has been used when striking an opponent. To keep hitting your foe until the ref stops you.

However when Nate Marquardt had Maia knocked out we didn't see him land the Dan Henderson like bomb that he could of.

Marquardt showed respect for his opponent and I appreciate his sportsmanship.

I don't disagree. But I also think a submission hold and a strike are different, given the fact that a) you are looking at your opponent's face/head when striking and KNOW if they're in trouble, unlike with most subs and b) because of potential long-term health ramifications of a tendon/ligament vs. the human brain.

Again, that's another reason why the referees need to be the best and on their games.

Remember UFC 1? Ken Shamrock was submitted by Royce Gracie, who released the hold. The referee didn't see the tap and didn't know what to do. Shamrock tried to pretend nothing happened and petitioned the ref to continue. Or Murilo Bustamante vs. Matt Lindland. A gongshow. Like the myriad fighters who get knocked out, then recover quickly and claim they were fine, contrary to all evidence.

Remember, this is mixed martial arts, not chess. There will be some injuries. And unlike boxing, the UFC rarely punishes guys for losses. Before we sissify the sport, let's first try and get the best officials in place with a clear set of rules for what is acceptable or not, along with penalties that fighters will face if they break them. (Use Henderson vs. Bisping and Rampage vs. Silva, among dozens of others for strikes after-the-fact and Palhares, Babalu, BJ Penn, Shamrock, etc. for submissions held too long.)

Q: What do you do when a guy won't tap or an injury occurs quickly. (Shinya Aoki vs. everyone, Mir vs. Sylvia, Sakuraba vs. Renzo, Hughes vs. Royce, etc.?)

I think that would be a great roll to get Big John McCarthy re-integrated into mainstream MMA - a director of officiating who trains the referees and works with the various athletic commissions on supplementary punishment for fighters, as well as suspensions for poor officiating.

The athletic commissions, who still don't know the sport of MMA very well, keep sending out these inept officials - we're looking at you, Mssrs. Mazagatti, Miragliatta, Lavigne and Mulhall - and the promoters, fighters, fans, sponsors and even lawmakers, etc., have no say in it. The continued growth of a resurgent MMA depends on details like that; without proper training and oversight of judges and in-ring officials, the downfall or relegation to niche sport/freakshow will be inevitable.

 

[blaze69]

Frank Mir is fine. And along the sport of mma we go.

 

[The Oracle]

I don't disagree. But I also think a submission hold and a strike are different, given the fact that a) you are looking at your opponent's face/head when striking and KNOW if they're in trouble, unlike with most subs and b) because of potential long-term health ramifications of a tendon/ligament vs. the human brain.

Again, that's another reason why the referees need to be the best and on their games.

Remember UFC 1? Ken Shamrock was submitted by Royce Gracie, who released the hold. The referee didn't see the tap and didn't know what to do. Shamrock tried to pretend nothing happened and petitioned the ref to continue. Or Murilo Bustamante vs. Matt Lindland. A gongshow. Like the myriad fighters who get knocked out, then recover quickly and claim they were fine, contrary to all evidence.

Remember, this is mixed martial arts, not chess. There will be some injuries. And unlike boxing, the UFC rarely punishes guys for losses. Before we sissify the sport, let's first try and get the best officials in place with a clear set of rules for what is acceptable or not, along with penalties that fighters will face if they break them. (Use Henderson vs. Bisping and Rampage vs. Silva, among dozens of others for strikes after-the-fact and Palhares, Babalu, BJ Penn, Shamrock, etc. for submissions held too long.)

Q: What do you do when a guy won't tap or an injury occurs quickly. (Shinya Aoki vs. everyone, Mir vs. Sylvia, Sakuraba vs. Renzo, Hughes vs. Royce, etc.?)

I think that would be a great roll to get Big John McCarthy re-integrated into mainstream MMA - a director of officiating who trains the referees and works with the various athletic commissions on supplementary punishment for fighters, as well as suspensions for poor officiating.

The athletic commissions, who still don't know the sport of MMA very well, keep sending out these inept officials - we're looking at you, Mssrs. Mazagatti, Miragliatta, Lavigne and Mulhall - and the promoters, fighters, fans, sponsors and even lawmakers, etc., have no say in it. The continued growth of a resurgent MMA depends on details like that; without proper training and oversight of judges and in-ring officials, the downfall or relegation to niche sport/freakshow will be inevitable.

Captain your encyclopedic knowledge of the sport is refreshing as you bring forth events too which I had long forgotten.

Ken Shamrock at first refusing to acknowledge tapping out to royce, lol, even then he was an arrogant ass.

Of course Royce was no saint himself. Holding on to submissions against Gerard Gordeau and Jason Delucia for well past the original tapout.

Another problem child Aoki, will have his hands full with Melendez in his next fight I do believe. Lets see if he will be able to display his usual bad behaviour in a cage without the benefit of his long pants for his subs.

I 100% agree with you about your feelings of Big John McCarthy being the one guy who could galvanize the officiating in MMA. Let us hope that this can come true.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Of course Royce was no saint himself. Holding on to submissions against Gerard Gordeau and Jason Delucia for well past the original tapout.

Another problem child Aoki, will have his hands full with Melendez in his next fight I do believe. Lets see if he will be able to display his usual bad behaviour in a cage without the benefit of his long pants for his subs.

Gerard Gordeau - the quintessential bully - deserved what he got - he intentionally gouged Yuki Nakai* and permanently blinded the much smaller Japanese fighter's right eye in a losing effort in Japan in the early 1990s. Despicable.

While I agree with the fact that what Royce Gracie did was uncool, he also remembered how the referee almost screwed up and cost him the Shamrock match earlier that same night. The Jason Delucia thing was a spillover from that, plus there was some personal issue with the two - some time previous to the start of UFC Delucia had come to one of the Gracie studios to take up the "Gracie Challenge" in front of his students. Apparently even after being smothered and dominated, Delucia stated that Gracie wasn't that tough. Still not cool by Royce to keep cranking the armbar, but given the background, somewhat more understandable.

(*To me, Nakai is one of the most underrated MMA fighters of the early era, IMO - as a 140lb judoka, he made the much larger Rickson Gracie work harder than he had ever before in Japan before being submitted. This was after losing the sight in his right eye in the first match that night! He even beat a huge 250lb Craig Pittman in between those two matches back in the days of one-night tournaments!)


As for Shinya Aoki, I actually hope he beats Melendez and then signs with the UFC (or White and the Fertitas start doing cross-promotional shows) and ends up fighting BJ Penn. Then we'll see what a real comeuppance is all about. But that's just the "meathead" in me.

 

[ms9795]

he deserves the suspension - the guy tapped and still gets injured? he didnt even really seem remorseful when rogan asked him about it.

and about gsp...he is an amazing fighter don't get me wrong but his lack of ability to finish is why i personally don't think hes up there with fedor and anderson silva as the best pound for pound fighters. Those guys finish fights...period. if (and i know its a huge if) gsp wasnt so good with his take downs, he would not be the champ. take away fedor and silva's striking (their best asset) and i still believe they are good enough to handle most guys

 

[C Dick]

Could it be that GSP is too decent a person to want to really smash a guy he is already dominating? He seems to lack the finesse to put people in submissions that force them to tap without hurting them. So his choices for finishing are either to GnP and smash their faces, or use his strength for brute force submissions that might break something. Either way, injury for his opponent. Perhaps he is too much of a nice guy to do so? He always seems very polite and respectful, unlike must MMA fighters who seem to have more of an edge. So my theory is that he could have pounded Hardy, but did not want to.

As far as the stoppages, I don't think Carwin did anything wrong (other than perhaps striking the back of the head), he seemed to stop when the ref made him. But Palhares seemed to be fully aware the ref was on him, and yet keep squeezing. Perhaps they should have a very loud and distinctive horn to be sounded for a stoppage, then the ref could just click his remote to sound it. And the corners could too to throw in the towel.

 

[Smash]

[*]You don't "learn" championship-level, MMA-functional BJJ in a year. Not even an athletic freak like GSP. No gi, no punches to the face while trying to apply techniques as well as training partners who tap early to avoid any form of injury = not useful in MMA title fights. High-level BJJ is something that takes a lifetime of commitment.

I never said he could learn championship-level bjj in 1 year. I said it would be wize for him to focus for at least a year on bjj even for the basic sub's like armbars which clearly he needs pratice with. He wouldnt be at Mirs level of subs in 1 year (thats a no brainer) but at least he should be alot more comfortable at applying holds without searching for the right angle for long periods. He looked lost trying to apply a simple armbar. If he praticed bjj more offten even for a year those basic holds would be second nature to him.


[*]You make it seem like he should somehow stand up with guys who are better strikers to show his "heart." That's nonsense. We're talking MMA, not a Tough Man competition.t it.

No its not a tuff man comp but GSP is (was) a quality striker when he first came on the scene. I use to love watchin him in his first bunch of fights cuz he would throw everything at guys now he jus takes you down and keeps you down until you tire out. My point is he is a good striker but hes sooo scared to get hit and possibly ko'ed that I think he lost his confidence striking wize with a good striker. Hardy's a good puncher but I dont think he's wayy better then GSP if he tries and takes a chance. GSP is wayy too fast for anyone in his div so his risk isnt as great.
He jus plays it safe which is fine if it gets him a w but I wont rank him in Spiders, Penns league for p4p.


[*]Josh Koscheck is a boring fighter with a personality - annoying as it is. He's no more fun to watch in the cage than Jon Fitch. Or GSP, as it were.
I dissagree, JOSH was a boring wrestler on the show but now has some striking ability and puts on a good show. Fitch is boring as hell, when his fight started I went to play pool at the bar.


[*]I'm not sure what to make of the kimura. I think GSP could have really wrenched it and snapped Hardy's arm.
Thats easy... GSP lacks BASIC bjj skillz and cudnt finish a non-bjj guy in Hardy........ several times=pratice your bjj GSP and stop wasting time on stuff you done use like flying to
NYC to study with a Muay Thai master in preparation to fight Hardy.lol


Speaking of which, Rousimar Palhares was suspended for 90 days for keeping the heel hook on for too long vs. Thomas Drwal.

He should be suspened but the ref was also at fault since he was wayyy too far away to jump in at the right time. When you look at the birdseye view the ref isnt even in the picture. The ref was way too far away to break up the hold in time.

IMO Carwin did nothing wrong a few xtra shots goes so fast by the time you clearly see the opponent out 2 more shots get through. Its tuff for a ref to get there before 1 or 2 shots gets bye.

The red head Canadian fella won that fight imo but it was close...But he got robbed.

Okay my copy and paste skillz suck just like GSP armbars..lol

 

[Top Jimmy]

To the responses to my earlier comments:

The Silva I was refering to was Anderson, who was booed for that Thales Leites fight as Captain Fantastic mentioned in the post after mine. It was like watching paint dry, albeit with a guy kicking the paint in the shin every few seconds... I agree he can finish a fight... if he wants to. Wanderlei, in his prime, was fireworks to watch.

Between this and the "Silva" comment, I'd say you don't get out much, do you?

Calling it like I see it. I'm not taking anything away from Carwin. There's a reason he's never had to go into the 2nd round. But do you honestly think Dana White wanted to try and sell "Mir vs Lesnar 3"? No way. Mir did sweet f*** all in this fight, and got paid. A couple of good fights afterwards, and he's back in the hunt. UFC gets the Carwin/Lesnar fight they want, everybody is happy. I'm not saying its a conspiracy. There is no tin foil in my ballhat.

The other reference was to EliteXC pushing Kimbo Slice, against Paul Thompson. I have watched this stuff before, thanks.

a few other notes from above - GSP really doesn't need to work on his takedowns IMHO, but needs to decide what he wants to do when he gets there. Both submission attempts were not the kind of technical work I think he's capable of. Also I can't really consider switching to side control, then turning my back and punching the opponent in the stomache and back "ground and pound". More like "tenderizing"...

 

[Manji]

I know it's a little late but I don't seem to have the time to post anymore....

I agree that Rousimar Palhares deserves to be fined/and or suspended. My point was that I can understand how he could have zoned out and kept the hold on. And the referee was slow to react and not forceful enough. (Remember when John McCarthy bloodied a fighter one time trying to save another defenceless one? That's precisely what a ref needs to do at times. It's a disgrace that UFC and NSAC continue to blacklist Big John.)

What I find interesting is that there appears to be a double standard. BJ Penn kept a choke on well after the ref stopped the rematch with Jens Pulver and was not even reprimanded. There have been other examples, including blows after a ref stoppage (Rampage vs. Silva) and yet this and Renato Sobral holding a choke on David Heath after the ref stepped in (and even admitted he did so intentionally, saying "he (Heath) has to learn respect. He deserved that. He called me 'motherfucker'.") are the only examples of punishment meted out afterwards.
.

I think Palahares deserves the suspension...
The Ref told him verbally and then tried to stop him physically...I think Palahares intentionally ignored the Referee's warning and kept on going (maybe to send a message)....
It might be no coincidence that Bustamante was in Palahares' corner. I think Bustamante almost got burned when he he fought Matt Lindland may UFCs ago...He had Lindland in a submission and then let go of Lindland when he tapped...The ref didn't see it and Lindland denied he tapped and the fight went on...It was UFC 37 and Bustamante eventually won by submission....
That fight most likely left a strong impression on Bustamante and any of his BTT proteges..
Bustamante probably drills it into his students that they should never let go of their submission until their absolutely sure that the referee has acknowledge the opponent's surrender...

 

[Manji]

Whoop-dee-damn-do. He changed positions and did nothing. A couple of weak choke attempts, a sloppy armbar and a kimura that he didn't commit to finish. What ground and pound? Barely a mark on Hardy's face. GSP's corner practically BEGGED him to G'n'P more. Other than a handful of half-assed attempts at technically sloppy submissions, he did nothing to try and finish the fight.

Sorry, he did not try "everything." He wanted a tap out but was simply not good enough to pull it off without setting up the submissions with striking, ground and pound, etc. His BJJ is not at a high enough level to do so. Instead of busting Hardy up with punches and elbows from the guard, half-guard, side mount and mount, he tried muscling submissions that he is not slick enough to pull off.

This coming from a guy that loves GSP and the leaps and bounds he's made as a fighter. But that was a putrid performance in what is becoming a trend. There was no torn abductor to blame this time.

Agreed...

GSP didn't show any urgency or tenacity in his Ground and Pound (look at Fedor beating up on Nog - he pounded Big Nog like his life depended on it)....Very little creativity or variety in his submissions -(passed up arm chokes and didn't try to effectively take his back)....And did very little standing up (a couple of jabs and some harmless kicks).....

GSP is making himself look like a one-trick pony....Admittedly he's got one Hell of a trick (his takedowns and passing) but after that its like he's at a loss...He either incapable and/or unwilling to finish the job....

GSP may bring in the wins but he will be losing fans with more performances like that (justifiably so...)

 

[Manji]

BY the way....

Isn't a 90 day suspension an ineffective punishment!!

Most MMA fighters don't fight for another three - four months anyways....
The suspension was more lip service than a real punishment....

To make a suspension effective its got to be a at least six months to a year...