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Tunnel plan for Eglinton Crosstown LRT could stymie Ford

jwmorrice

Gentleman by Profession
Jun 30, 2003
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In the laboratory.
I'm surprised no one had posted this article. Is it because expectations are now so low of Rob Ford that his stupidity has become boring?

jwm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...osstown-lrt-could-stymie-ford/article2227492/
Tunnel plan for Eglinton Crosstown LRT could stymie Ford
john lorinc
From Monday's Globe and Mail
Published Sunday, Nov. 06, 2011 10:25PM EST
Last updated Sunday, Nov. 06, 2011 10:27PM EST


Long before Mayor Rob Ford killed Transit City, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT was an enormously complicated engineering project, but the plan to bury the 25-km line is creating new engineering and soil disposal headaches that could drive up both cost and complexity.

The estimated cost already jumped from $4.6-billion to $8.2-billion, after Queen’s Park agreed to take the line underground.

The design riddles associated with tunneling under the Don River and Black Creek could provide Mr. Ford’s critics with an opening to block the revised plan in council next year. And there could be a domino effect on Mr. Ford’s Sheppard subway plan. Under his deal with the province, if the Crosstown line comes in under budget, unspent funds will go toward the subway.

The Don Valley

Under the Transit City strategy, the LRT was to emerge from a tunnel east of Laird and continue eastward on a right-of-way in the middle of Eglinton. But because of Mr. Ford’s changes, Metrolinx officials have spent months grappling with the question of how to get the Crosstown line across the Don Valley.

A tunnel may prove to be too deep and too steep for light rail vehicles, so Bruce McCuaig, president and CEO of Metrolinx, said the agency is looking at building a grade-separated bridge for the LRT as it crosses the ravines. Public consultations on an environmental assessment examining a bridge and other tunnel configurations will begin in early 2012.

Yet some councillors are already questioning both alternatives.

Deputy Speaker John Parker, whose ward includes that stretch of Eglinton, said there’s “a strong argument” for running the LRT on a right-of-way on Eglinton as it t**********ses the Don Valley. Transit City supporter Gord Perks (Parkdale-High Park) took a stronger line: “Why don’t they just go back to the original idea? They can’t get it under the Don.”

Mr. McCuaig couldn’t say whether the public will be asked to comment on a surface option during next year’s EA and added that he’s not sure whether council will even be asked to make the ultimate decision.

Mr. Perks, however, predicted that Metrolinx’s EA, which he said is subject to council approval, could become a lightning rod for critics of Mr. Ford’s plan. “This could be the issue that forces Transit City in front of this council for the first time.”

Soil disposal

The tunnels and the stations for the Eglinton line will yield enough soil to fill the Rogers Centre – between 1 million and 2 million cubic metres. For the last project of this scale – the Bloor-Danforth subway line – the Toronto Transit Commission dumped excess fill into the Garrison Creek ravines.

The rules have changed dramatically since the 1960s. As recently as last summer, new provincial regulations imposed tougher remediation standards on excavated soil, while revised “best management practice” guidelines for the disposal of excavated fill are expected next year.

Officials with Metrolinx and the TTC insist the new standards won’t affect the Eglinton line. “It shouldn’t have an impact at all,” said project manager Sameh Ghaly, noting that the excavated soil from the tunnels will be dug from a depth of about seven metres to 10 metres.

“My understanding is that the soil will be in pristine shape,” added Mr. McCuaig.

Construction industry sources disagree. The new standards are “going to make it more difficult to dispose of excess construction soils,” said Andy Manahan, executive director of the Residential and Civil Construction Alliance of Ontario. “I would think these regulations will impact the cost of Metrolinx projects.”

Environmental lawyer Janet Bobechko, a partner with Blaney McMurtry, added that surface contamination from gas stations and dry cleaners has been known to leach down to the tunnel depths.

TTC has been doing geotechnical assessments for the past year, and soil testing on the eastern stretch began in late October.

Special to the Globe and Mail
 

cye

Active member
Jul 11, 2008
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The Big Dig in Boston taught us that what ever assumptions you make as to cost are wrong. It will always be more expensive than projected.
 

fmahovalich

Active member
Aug 21, 2009
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While environmentalists may have other ideas, I say put the soil into Lake Ontario and create some new land!

Much like Hong Kong did to get an airport, they re-claimed land in the ocean.

A few acres of downtown land in Toronto would certainly generate some excellent revenue in the downtown area.
.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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Just put it on the damn street. What's Ford's obsession with burying it? Bury it where it is not too costly to do so, and run it above ground where it would add a billion dollars to the price tag to bury it--like over a river.
 

avxl1003

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Aug 31, 2009
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While environmentalists may have other ideas, I say put the soil into Lake Ontario and create some new land!

Much like Hong Kong did to get an airport, they re-claimed land in the ocean.

A few acres of downtown land in Toronto would certainly generate some excellent revenue in the downtown area.
.
If only the solution was as simple as you are..
 

avxl1003

New member
Aug 31, 2009
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Just put it on the damn street. What's Ford's obsession with burying it? Bury it where it is not too costly to do so, and run it above ground where it would add a billion dollars to the price tag to bury it--like over a river.
A think Freud would have a field day with Rob Ford's obsession with trains going into tunnels.
 

fmahovalich

Active member
Aug 21, 2009
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Simple? Hmmm... At least I think outside the box.

Are you suggesting the Hong Kong people are all simple for putting soil in the ocean!

It would seem that way!
 

avxl1003

New member
Aug 31, 2009
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Simple? Hmmm... At least I think outside the box.

Are you suggesting the Hong Kong people are all simple for putting soil in the ocean!

It would seem that way!
I'm suggesting that the process was a lot more complicated than simply dumping soil into the ocean.
 

fmahovalich

Active member
Aug 21, 2009
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The point was IT IS SOIL...and it fills the ROGERS CENTRE AND THEN SOME.

The smart move is to create valuable land....and use it to offset cost of the project.
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
11,001
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"I can see Scarberia from my grave" is what will be etched in granite on Rob Ford's tombstone.

No developer money as he promised never mind the $4billion he stated.
Now supposedly to be built on a station by station basis. No developer money as he had promised. Nowhere near the Pan Am Games timeline he had promised.

"The city is in a fiscal calamity of catastrophic Biblical proportions."

Where's the money Robbie? Saddle on more debt Robbie?

The subway to nowhere.
 

avxl1003

New member
Aug 31, 2009
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The point was IT IS SOIL...and it fills the ROGERS CENTRE AND THEN SOME.

The smart move is to create valuable land....and use it to offset cost of the project.
My point is it's quite expensive to build new land in the middle of a lake (or ocean). It would only add more cost to the project, and never actually pay itself off (let alone offset the cost of the project).
 

fuji

Banned
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During the election he said he would build 10 new subway stops during his term. Now they are saying they MIGHT be able to build one, but they haven't been able to come up with the money for that one yet.

Prediction:

Rob Ford will completely and utterly fail to accomplish any of his transit plan, and the next mayor of Toronto will implement Transit City. Ford's only impact will be to have Transit City implemented four years later than it should be, with associated increases in traffic gridlock while we wait.
 

avxl1003

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Aug 31, 2009
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In fairness to those opposed to transit city, I don't actually think it's that great a plan. I do think it's already been paid for, so it's stupid to throw it away in favour of this mystical subway with phantom investors paying for it.

But in truth, whether it's a subway or light rail line, it's still going to be feeding the Yonge line which is already running at capacity.

In my opinion some serious money needs to start coming down from the province (or feds) to put funding into the downtown relief line (that was part of Network 2011) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Relief_Line

Only then should we be looking into the Shepherd line, or the Eglinton line.
 

nervous

no longer.....
Nov 28, 2004
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The city should be building subways, not above ground transit. The mistakes of the past should not be continued. World class cities have world class transit and that means subways. The city has boring machines...dug tunnels and build the stations as you can afford them. Tranbsit city was and is a joke left over from the fifties.
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
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In fairness to those opposed to transit city, I don't actually think it's that great a plan. I do think it's already been paid for, so it's stupid to throw it away in favour of this mystical subway with phantom investors paying for it.

But in truth, whether it's a subway or light rail line, it's still going to be feeding the Yonge line which is already running at capacity.

In my opinion some serious money needs to start coming down from the province (or feds) to put funding into the downtown relief line (that was part of Network 2011) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Relief_Line

Only then should we be looking into the Shepherd line, or the Eglinton line.
There was serious money and a plan before Ford derailed it all.
He cancelled it for what?
 

avxl1003

New member
Aug 31, 2009
1,346
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The city should be building subways, not above ground transit. The mistakes of the past should not be continued. World class cities have world class transit and that means subways. The city has boring machines...dug tunnels and build the stations as you can afford them. Tranbsit city was and is a joke left over from the fifties.
???

No it wasn't.. Transit City was a brand new idea of David Millers. Up until "Transit City" the only other ideas that had been presented were ideas that all revolved around Network 2011 (or were loosely based on it). Bob Rae started to build a Subway along Eglinton (which was initially supposed to be a "Busway"), but the tunnels were filled in by Mike Harris. Mike Harris built part of the Shepherd Subway Line (the one we're all familiar with today), but it's virtually useless as it stops at Don Mills.

Again, not really defending Transit City.. I don't think Transit City was a great plan, but nobody can doubt it was better than the "No-Plan" which is what we have right now.

Actually it's funny. Rob Ford's banking on a plan for the Shepherd Subway that's already failed once. In 1990 the Peterson government took the Shepherd Subway line off the table and said they would only build it if the private sector contributed a significant amount (which it didn't). Now Rob Ford is claiming he'll do the same thing... Brilliant.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,059
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The best solution is a combination of LRTs and Subways.

All street cars and LRT would be the same technology.

The Scarborough LRT would need to be redone to be the same technology.

The TTC currently has 3 distinct rail systems - subway, streetcar, Scarborough LRT and none of them are compatible. They need to stock 3 of everything and 3 different groups at TTC servicing 3 different systems.

This could be reduced to 2.

IMHO, the following should be subways:

Eglinton
Queen
Sheppard
We also need (badly) another north / south route
We could also use the existing CPR rail corridor (The CPR North Toronto Subdivsion running from Toronto West Junction to Leaside) as an at grade subway. There is plenty of room in that corridor.

The following should be LRT:

Jane
Vic Park
Lakeshore
Dufferin
 

avxl1003

New member
Aug 31, 2009
1,346
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0
The best solution is a combination of LRTs and Subways.

All street cars and LRT would be the same technology.

The Scarborough LRT would need to be redone to be the same technology.

The TTC currently has 3 distinct rail systems - subway, streetcar, Scarborough LRT and none of them are compatible. They need to stock 3 of everything and 3 different groups at TTC servicing 3 different systems.

This could be reduced to 2.

IMHO, the following should be subways:

Eglinton
Queen
Sheppard
We also need (badly) another north / south route
We could also use the existing CPR rail corridor (The CPR North Toronto Subdivsion running from Toronto West Junction to Leaside) as an at grade subway. There is plenty of room in that corridor.

The following should be LRT:

Jane
Vic Park
Lakeshore
Dufferin
I like your idea. Although, I think Dufferin could be left out, especially if there was a second North / South subway route. Your idea seems to be a good mesh of Network 2011 and Transit City (which is really what's needed). Unfortunately this idea is so grand, and Harper has such disdain for Toronto, that it will never receive the kind of funding it would need to go ahead (with any sort of timely outcome).
 
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