Truthers, Fire melts steel again!

[spheroyds]

pick an ideology

ok...
Let's say you line up all the theories and explanations on both sides.

What it comes down to is whether you trust official explanations or not on events of major scale

Gulf of Tonkin/Vietnam
1953 coup in Iran
Pearl Harbour
2nd bombing on Nagasaki
Operation Northwood
...lastly...Iraq War (10 downing street memo is all you really need).

 

[Aardvark154]

ok...
Let's say you line up all the theories and explanations on both sides.

This has all been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseam. If you want to believe in black helicopters, second and third gunmen, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion etc. . . I suppose I can’t force you to see reason. However, I’m not going to waste my time any further.

 

[Gyaos]

I do find it ironic the accident just (so happened) to occur at the direct central point to shutdown all the highways at SFO, Ca-LEE-fornia. It was good to see the Terminator show up, however. He knew it was the T-1000 that caused the bridge to go down.

Gyaos Baltar.

 

[Mcluhan]

Ok, since we are on the 9/11 topic, willing to look at both sides so long as we don't get into "straw man" arguments.

what happened to building 7 of wtc?

Do some research. There was a huge hole. (huge, 6 or 7 stories high) punched in the side of the build due to cascading debris from the adjacent building. The structure weakened and it collapsed after about 7 hrs. Simple. Plus, one of the obscuring factors is that there are no photos of the extent of damage that can be clearly seen. Why? Well because of the smoke pouring out from the site all day long, and debris in the air. There are web sites that show the edges of the cavern- like hole in the side of the structure.

The idea of comparing bridge structural steel to the steel in WTC is a ridiculous idea to start with. The fabrications, the alloys, the loads, all different. Absurd idea. The premise by the truthout org is that the buildings were deliberately demo'ed by explosives set prior to the attacks and that three planes were planned but only two made the target, therefore the third building had to be imploded, otherwise the explosives in the basement would have been discovered. Nuts.

 

[spheroyds]

fair

...research can be skewed both ways so I'm going to suspend my inquisitive mind pending history's judgment in a few decades

Still, doesn't change the fact that 9/11 was a convenient catalyst. Some would say another Pearl Harbor.

 

[Mcluhan]

...research can be skewed both ways so I'm going to suspend my inquisitive mind pending history's judgment in a few decades

Still, doesn't change the fact that 9/11 was a convenient catalyst. Some would say another Pearl Harbor.

Rather than adopt a far out idea like its a pet, there lots of other strange stuff surrounding the 9/11 that requires critical thinking. You don't have to look far to find loose threads. The fact that it provided the great catalyst immediately warped/parlayed on the same afternoon by Cheney and Rumsfeld into an invasion of Iraq is obvious and true. Remember, you do not assess the accuracy of a fact by the number of people who believe it, large or small - especially these days.

 

[spheroyds]

good advice

Rather than adopt a far out idea like its a pet

I don't get bent out of shape if new evidence comes out one way or another on the 9/11 event. To me, it is merely an indicator that people are still searching for the truth in one sense or another, by one side or another. This is good and the closer people hone in on what is real and what isn't can only be seen as a good thing.

It's the big picture that really matters and when we look at history and the rise and fall of empires, this is simply another chapter.

 

[Aardvark154]

News flash: The black helicopters are coming to pick up the people who rigged the explosives in the World Trade Center so that they may meet with those actually responsible for the assination of JFK, joining them will be T.I.H. Tsarevich Alexis and Grand Dutchess Anastasia, also the crewmembers of Navy Flight 19 will be attending. If the two of you move quickly I'm sure you can catch them all at the meeting.

 

[Mcluhan]

News flash: The black helicopters are coming to pick up the people who rigged the explosives in the World Trade Center so that they may meet with those actually responsible for the assination of JFK, joining them will be T.I.H. Tsarevich Alexis and Grand Dutchess Anastasia, also the crewmembers of Navy Flight 19 will be attending. If the two of you move quickly I'm sure you can catch them all at the meeting.

your sarcasm is dully noted. Don't quit your day job.

 

[red]

A sprayed on asbestos coating that was largely blown off upon impact from the planes, on several floors. The beams didn't need to melt, or even to buckle. All that was required was that they were softened by the fire sufficiently, to bend and sag downwards until they became disengaged from the clips holding them to the exterior walls. Really all this has been hashed through on the board before, and anyone wanting to reargue should probably try the search function first.

clips? the beams were held by clips? they didn't use rivets?

 

[Asterix]

clips? the beams were held by clips? they didn't use rivets?

They're called angle-clips, and are riveted in. Though not the only means of support, they were there to hold the trusses in position. They were the smallest component holding the truss framework together, and many engineers believe, the weak link. Once a few gave way, and the load was transferred onto adjacent trusses, the entire floor reached a point where it essentially unzipped. Think Titanic, whose hull skin was pealed back when individual rivet after another gave way to the next. Think avalanche.

 

[Aardvark154]

your sarcasm is dully noted. Don't quit your day job.

Point taken. However, it truly bothers me that so many people buy into this nonsense. It's like believing that FDR knew all about a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and did nothing.

The same sort of logic or lack thereof is involved - that because U.S. Naval Intelligence knew from intercepts that the Japanese planned something during the first half of December 1941 - that therefore everyone in Washington "must have known" that the Japanese planed an attack on Pearl Harbor. Many scholarly books have been written proving in excruciating detail the falsehood of such statements, yet there are still those that propound such nonsense.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Point taken. However, it truly bothers me that so many people buy into this nonsense. It's like believing that FDR knew all about a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and did nothing.

The same sort of logic or lack thereof is involved - that because U.S. Naval Intelligence knew from intercepts that the Japanese planned something during the first half of December 1941 - that therefore everyone in Washington "must have known" that the Japanese planed an attack on Pearl Harbor. Many scholarly books have been written proving in excruciating detail the falsehood of such statements, yet there are still those that propound such nonsense.

For what it's worth, this is how I would sum up the most prominent conspiricy theories:

Pearl Harbour conspiricy = hogwash
9/11 conspiricy = hogwash
Apollo moon landing conspiricy = hogwash
JFK Assissination conspiricy = strong probablility

 

[Mcluhan]

Point taken. However, it truly bothers me that so many people buy into this nonsense. It's like believing that FDR knew all about a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and did nothing.

The same sort of logic or lack thereof is involved - that because U.S. Naval Intelligence knew from intercepts that the Japanese planned something during the first half of December 1941 - that therefore everyone in Washington "must have known" that the Japanese planed an attack on Pearl Harbor. Many scholarly books have been written proving in excruciating detail the falsehood of such statements, yet there are still those that propound such nonsense.

Read the thread I posted on coincidences, its hilarious.

I am not a proponent of conspiracies in general. I do however have a range of experience that I pay attention to.

The jfk issue is the most fascinating of all the who-done-its. It definitely was a conspiracy in my world. The others, I have not researched, and have no opinion on, nor am I disturbed by others as you seem to be, they can think what they want. To really have an opinion on JFK, one has to to do literally thousands of hrs of work, just to get into the ball park. I have done a few hundred hrs, if that...I am just a guppy as regards that hobby, swimming with sharks. Still it continues to be interesting for me personally.

 

[papasmerf]

Read the thread I posted on coincidences, its hilarious.

I am not a proponent of conspiracies in general. I do however have a range of experience that I pay attention to.

The jfk issue is the most fascinating of all the who-done-its. It definitely was a conspiracy in my world. The others, I have not researched, and have no opinion on, nor am I disturbed by others as you seem to be, they can think what they want. To really have an opinion on JFK, one has to to do literally thousands of hrs of work, just to get into the ball park. I have done a few hundred hrs, if that...I am just a guppy as regards that hobby, swimming with sharks. Still it continues to be interesting for me personally.

Edward Kennedy had the most to gain from the deaths of his brothers.

 

[Aardvark154]

Edward Kennedy had the most to gain from the deaths of his brothers.

I love his Bush's Vietnam statement, considering that it was his brother that really got the ball rolling for U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Apparently this is something the Senior Senator from Massachusetts has forgotten, just like forgetting that poor Miss Kopechne was still in the car.

 

[papasmerf]

I love his Bush's Vietnam statement, considering that it was his brother that really got the ball rolling for U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Apparently this is something the Senior Senator from Massachusetts has forgotten, just like forgetting that poor Miss Kopechne was still in the car.

Ted forgets alot

 

[Aardvark154]

The jfk issue is the most fascinating of all the who-done-its. It definitely was a conspiracy in my world.

If you haven't already, read Gerald Posner's Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK.

 

[Mcluhan]

If you haven't already, read Gerald Posner's Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK.

Seems everyone that doesn't like to look for details reads his book. I'm familiar with his arguments.

What Posner did was fill in a nice story that assembles easily like the conventionally accepted truth. To sum it up, he condensed the Warren Report, which any person that has studied 'the mess' knows is so far from the truth that it's absolute perfect fiction. Posner wrote a nice historical account of the Warren Commission, but it is not the truth. How can this happen? Well it's simple. The commission started with an argument that there was one shooter from the sixth floor, and they matched the 'facts', tailoring some, ignoring a boat load of others to support the argument. That's what happens when you assemble a bunch of lawyers to explain something this complex with a mission to explain an argument. And they had tons of help from every quarter, the FBI, the CIA, MI, the Secret Service, and last but not least main stream media. "Case Closed' Everybody could now breath a sigh of relief that the story was finally resolved, the public was satisfied because the New York Times was satisfied. The official version WAS after all still the official version.

However what we are still left with is the mess. And it’s a big mess.

The real story line (lets no longer call it the truth, because this will be misleading) has yet to be fully pieced together because nothing about this story adds up. That's why I gave up on it five years ago after I spend a month analyzing it. Since then tonnes of information has come forth because of documents that have been released or that you can now find access to, interviews and so on. Stones JFK was a positive catalyst because it forced the release of so many related documents.

This story is the ultimate who-done-it of our time, there will never be one greater. Probably of the millennium. I think the closest we will ever come to a resolution is a story line that makes sense.

Meanwhile, you have your storyline, Posner's, which agrees with the Warren Commission. It allows a lot of people still alive to sleep peacefully at night, but sorry, it ain't the truth.

 

[Aardvark154]

Seems everyone that doesn't like to look for details reads his book. I'm familiar with his arguments.

Perhaps you don’t fit into this category in which case my apologies. However, a great many people are made highly uncomfortable by the realization that huge changes in the world stage can be made by one deranged person. Witness Oswald largely a failure at everything he did except for firearms training. Or James Wilkes Booth part of a very small group who failed at just about everything they tired save for the assination of President Lincoln. It is much easier psychologically to believe that it must have all been part of something much larger.