Trump to ban all immigration from third world countries

fall

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Dec 9, 2010
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Racism, is irrational, never backed up by statistics and it cannot and does not ever benefit the majority, because it excludes or vilifies people in one way or another from participating and functioning in society normally.
You saying, that racism is rational and benefits the majority while simultaneously saying that it is unacceptable is contradicting, incoherent and illogical.
There are two statements in your post. First is that racism is irrational and is not backed up by statistics. This statement is incorrect as systematic c=racism is backed up by statistics (e.g., number of criminals per 1000 people is higher for black then for white or chineese in the USA).

Second is that the two statements that "racism is rational and benefits the majority" and "it is unacceptable" contradict each other. It is wrong. There is no contradiction between these two statements, and I challenge you to prove there is (using formal logic, of course). On the other hand, the fact that you do not see it (as well as many other regular Canadians) makes it logical to blame the Canadian education system for not properly teaching mathematics in school (in particular, how to write a formal proof of any theorem).
 
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squeezer

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Jan 8, 2010
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I am an immigrant. If something is bad for me, it does not mean it is irrational or bad for the majority of society. Why do you think so many former immigrants are so much against immigration? Because they come from the less fortunate countries where people need to care about their own family first, and there are no resources left to care about anyone else.
I am assuming you didn't come from a third-world country, so it was ok to allow you in?
 

Shaquille Oatmeal

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Jun 2, 2023
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There are two statements in your post. First is that racism is irrational and is not backed up by statistics. This statement is incorrect as systematic c=racism is backed up by statistics (e.g., number of criminals per 1000 people is higher for black then for white or chineese in the USA).

Second is that the two statements that "racism is rational and benefits the majority" and "it is unacceptable" contradict each other. It is wrong. There is no contradiction between these two statements, and I challenge you to prove there is (using formal logic, of course). On the other hand, the fact that you do not see it (as well as many other regular Canadians) makes it logical to blame the Canadian education system for not properly teaching mathematics in school (in particular, how to write a formal proof of any theorem).
Taking group numbers and applying them to any person is stereotyping.
That is racism and irrational by definition.
If a group shows a higher crime rate, it still tells you nothing about the next person you meet.
It is like refusing to hire an accountant because some accountants committed fraud. The statistic does not predict the individual.
You also claimed racism is rational, benefits the majority, and is still unacceptable.
You have not shown how all three can be true at the same time. You made the claim. You need to prove it.
 
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Frankfooter

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There are two statements in your post. First is that racism is irrational and is not backed up by statistics. This statement is incorrect as systematic c=racism is backed up by statistics (e.g., number of criminals per 1000 people is higher for black then for white or chineese in the USA).
Systematic racism is the effect of racist beliefs, forcing people of different cultural groups to live under different standards.
It is not proof that any group of humans is any different biologically.
 

benstt

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Jan 20, 2004
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There are two statements in your post. First is that racism is irrational and is not backed up by statistics. This statement is incorrect as systematic c=racism is backed up by statistics (e.g., number of criminals per 1000 people is higher for black then for white or chineese in the USA).
Given your fondness for math, can you show how you demonstrate a causal relationship between race and crime?
 
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fall

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Dec 9, 2010
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Given your fondness for math, can you show how you demonstrate a causal relationship between race and crime?
When did I say the relationship is casual? It is a simple correlation, not causality. I am sure there is a confounding factor between race and crime variables, but its presence in no way affects the result that discrimination is rational and may be beneficial. Hell, why are women afraid to be followed by a man in the dark alleys? Most of man simply go in the same direction for their own reason. It is not about causality, but correlation
 
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fall

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Dec 9, 2010
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Systematic racism is the effect of racist beliefs, forcing people of different cultural groups to live under different standards.
It is not proof that any group of humans is any different biologically.
Completely agree. No biological difference. But it is still rational based on correlation in existing data.
 

fall

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2010
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Taking group numbers and applying them to any person is stereotyping.
That is racism and irrational by definition.
If a group shows a higher crime rate, it still tells you nothing about the next person you meet.
It is like refusing to hire an accountant because some accountants committed fraud. The statistic does not predict the individual.
You also claimed racism is rational, benefits the majority, and is still unacceptable.
You have not shown how all three can be true at the same time. You made the claim. You need to prove it.
Completely agree with all you said except that it is "irrational by definition" and that "it tells nothing about the next person you meet". It does tell you the probability that the next person you meet, conditional on their race. And it is what is needed to make a rational decision based on the information you have.

And your claim is that "You also claimed racism is rational, benefits the majority, and is still unacceptable. You have not shown how all three can be true at the same time. You made the claim. You need to prove it." is also irrational. If you want to discuss it in formal logical terms, you cannot prove that there is no contradiction; you can only prove there is a contradiction. But if you need an example, then I think I provided sufficient explanation why racism is rational, benefits the majority and I think most Canadians agree that it is unacceptable (not sure what the definition of "unacceptable" is, maybe you can tell me), so, here you go. Just wait when Canadians becomes much poorer and their attitude of what is acceptable and what is not changes.
 
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fall

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Dec 9, 2010
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Just to make my point crystal clear about rationality and the benefits of discrimination and systematic racism. Imagine out of 1000 black people 50 are violent criminals, 100 are well-educated, highly paid professionals, and 850 are just regular Joes. For 1000 white people we have 20 violent criminals, 150 well-educated professionals, and 830 regular Joes. Whom would you like to see following you in a dark alley? I would prefer it to be well-educated professional. My second best is a regular Joe. I do not want it to be a violent criminal. Now, what if I only have to choose if it is a black or white guy, and the exact guy will be chosen from a corresponding population at random. Based on simple probability, I would like it to be a white dude.

Now, does it mean that blacks are more violent? No. Most likely, violence depends on the environment where they grew up, and more blacks grew up in poor households and witnessed violence in their childhood (and had to be violent to survive). If I know it, will it affect my decision between black or white guy in that dark alley? Hell no! It is still better for me to see a white dude there. So, we are done proving that systematic racism and discrimination is rational

Now, why it is beneficial for the majority. Even in my example above, ALL people (including black violent criminals if they are not there to commit the crime) would prefer to see a white dude following them. So, everyone benefits from discrimination at some point. Furthermore, if we assume that the discriminated group is the minority, only they will suffer from discrimination. So, the majority will benefit. Finally, if we are talking about immigration, we discriminate against certain countries/nationalities who are not our citizens yet, so, ALL our current citizens will benefit. And we are done proving that the majority benefits from discrimination.

Now, is discrimination "unacceptable". To answer this question, we need to define what we mean by "unacceptable". If it means "immoral" from the point of view of the majority of the population, then yes, it is unacceptable. When people have enough wealth, they start caring about other people and think of "justice". For example, if you can rob someone of $1,000,000 and know for sure you will not get caught, will you do it? The rational thing is to do it, but most people will not do it because they believe it is "unacceptable" from a moral perspective. And people who have a roof over their heads and food to it can be generous enough to behave based on their morals, not rationale. And they may be willing to spend money to eliminate that confounding factor (poverty) behind the race difference. So, racism/discrimination is unacceptable in a prosperous society. However, just a note on this "confounding factor," when immigrants come to Canada and do not assimilate but instead continue to segregate themselves based on their former nationality or religion, we, as a country, do not do a good job of eliminating that confounding factor.
 
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Shaquille Oatmeal

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Completely agree with all you said except that it is "irrational by definition" and that "it tells nothing about the next person you meet". It does tell you the probability that the next person you meet, conditional on their race. And it is what is needed to make a rational decision based on the information you have.

And your claim is that "You also claimed racism is rational, benefits the majority, and is still unacceptable. You have not shown how all three can be true at the same time. You made the claim. You need to prove it." is also irrational. If you want to discuss it in formal logical terms, you cannot prove that there is no contradiction; you can only prove there is a contradiction. But if you need an example, then I think I provided sufficient explanation why racism is rational, benefits the majority and I think most Canadians agree that it is unacceptable (not sure what the definition of "unacceptable" is, maybe you can tell me), so, here you go. Just wait when Canadians becomes much poorer and their attitude of what is acceptable and what is not changes.
It does not tell you anything “conditional on race” because race doesn’t cause behaviour.
Treating it as if it does is stereotyping, which is exactly why that conclusion is both racist and irrational.
As for your “formal logic” line: you’re misusing the concept. If an argument is structured properly, you can show it’s internally consistent.
But you haven’t actually presented a logical argument. You just asserted that racism is rational and “benefits the majority” without evidence.
The example you gave only proves my point: you’re drawing conclusions about individuals based on group categories. That isn’t rational analysis, it’s bias dressed up as logic.
And since you’re the one claiming racism is rational, the burden of proof is on you.
 

fall

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2010
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As for your “formal logic” line: you’re misusing the concept. If an argument is structured properly, you can show it’s internally consistent.
But you haven’t actually presented a logical argument. You just asserted that racism is rational and “benefits the majority” without evidence.
The example you gave only proves my point: you’re drawing conclusions about individuals based on group categories. That isn’t rational analysis, it’s bias dressed up as logic.
And since you’re the one claiming racism is rational, the burden of proof is on you.
I am sorry, but it is impossible to logically argue with a person who does not know what logic is. Gi back to school and learn a bt about conditional probability, causality, and correlation, and the fact that while causality helps to explain things, correlation is the one that is important to make decisions
 
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Shaquille Oatmeal

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It is conditional on the race, it is not because of the race. This is the difference between correlation and causality
If correlation =/= causation, which is true, then it is not conditional on race.
Your argument fails right there.
 

Shaquille Oatmeal

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2023
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I am sorry, but it is impossible to logically argue with a person who does not know what logic is. Gi back to school and learn a bt about conditional probability, causality, and correlation, and the fact that while causality helps to explain things, correlation is the one that is important to make decisions
I think you should take your own advice and go back to school instead of posting such gobbledygook.
In your example 98% of whites and blacks are not criminals.
The difference is so tiny, that it says nothing about the person behind you.
So your white guy choice may very well be the wrong choice.
If anything your conclusion should be, "both groups are very safe, I don't care who is behind me". That is the rational decision.
Hence your decision making isn't rational.
It is racist. And it is irrational.
As it is always the case with racism.
 
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