One would hope and expect that the remotely controlled switches would have a confirmation feedback signal, in fact it would be impossible to have remotely controlled switches without.
Train Wreck Via Rail derailment in Aldershot/Burlington
- Thread starter HOF
- Start date
While I don't claim to be an expert, my understanding is that there can be just enough of a gap that a wheel can force the switch open as the truck passes over it.One would hope and expect that the remotely controlled switches would have a confirmation feedback signal, in fact it would be impossible to have remotely controlled switches without.
The "siding" is a piece of track that runs parallel to the main track that is used for passsing or for storage depending on the type of siding. There is usually a switch at one end and a switch at the other.Wonder why the train was being directed to a siding, unless that "siding" was not dead ended, and had a switch to reroute back to the main line.
Even if that was true, coming back onto the main line might have a speed issue also.
Would appreciate something from the obviously more informed than me.
FAST
The correct term is actually "passing track", though most guys still call it a siding.
You have:
Passing Tracks
Sidings
Spurs (a spur being a segment of track that comes off the main line and goes into a town, or a factory.
Ys
Basically what you are doing is creating 2 parallel tracks for a given distance so that 2 trains can pass each other. The VIA train was to enter the passing track for whatever reason. (Or it could have been simply switching tracks, I'm not 100% sure about that to be honest. I believe it was a passing track though.)
Anyway, the VIA enters the passing track, presumably to get around another train, or a closed portion of the mainline track. It then exits at the end of the passing track (could be 2 miles from where it turned onto the passing track) and goes back on the mainline track.
But we know from the media that the switch had been activated remotely from Mac Yard (located at Keele Street, north of Highway 7) directing the train into the passing track. We also know that there was supposed to have been a flashing yellow signal which the operator would recognize to mean to drop his speed to 15 MPH.Yes, but given that it could have been picked - one set of trucks goes onto the switch and the second set keeps going straight ahead. . .
So the switch was thrown and the train in fact did cross over to the passing track. The only thing is he was going 67 Miles per hour instead of 15.
In the scenario you are describing, the switch closed prematurely behind the locomotive (which would be impossible given the speed of the locomotive as switches don't move that fast) and the second set of trucks on the locomotive keeps going straight. In either case, the switch was moved to send the train into the passing track.
Just to clarify, the VIA was crossing over from mainline 2 to mainline 3, not a siding or passing track. The Aldershot plant has small turnouts that only allow a speed of 15 mph, but the two tracks involved are both mainline.
The dispatcher may have had to cross the Via over to track 3 due to track conditions or another train on track 2.
The dispatcher may have had to cross the Via over to track 3 due to track conditions or another train on track 2.
I have been told that the train was in fact crossing to the passing track.
Never the less, you are correct the switch at that location is a Number 10 switch that as you know is rated at 15 mph instead of a Number 20 which is rated at 45 mph.
Apparently a Signal Maintainer was working on the mainline track and RTC switched the VIA train into the hole to go around the signal maintainer.
There are no less than 3 signals between Aldershot Station and the derailment site. All have been confirmed to have been working properly at the time of the derailment.
That exact train, driven by that crew is used to being full throttle on that portion of track. The crew has made that trip hundreds of times and they were used to going straight through (not switching) This one time, there was a Signal Maintainer doing some work on the mainline track and so RTC switched the VIA over to go around the Signal Maintainer. The crew of the VIA train was conditioned to just going straight at the timetable speed.
In other words, the crew was complacent due to conditioned behaviour. It happens. But they blew through 3 signals telling them to reduce to 15 MPH. Not one of them noticed and obviosly no-one in the cab was calling out the signals.
I suppose in hind sight (20 20) RTC could have telephoned the VIA and told them, "hey guys, we have to switch you at Signal X this one time because there is work being done on the track ahead, so be aware"
But that's not how the system is designed to work.
Realistically, trains could be updated to the 1990's and be outfitted with a more sophisticated form of "auto-pilot" which would know the position of the switches ahead, track geometry, train properties, etc. and could ensure that the train was being operated correctly, howver, I would expect extreme resistance from the railways as the infrastructure costs would be huge. (Not so much the locomotives, but the tracks themselves and the RTC)
The current signaling system used by trains is turn of the century technology.
I.e. 1899 to 1900 turn of the century.
Never the less, you are correct the switch at that location is a Number 10 switch that as you know is rated at 15 mph instead of a Number 20 which is rated at 45 mph.
Apparently a Signal Maintainer was working on the mainline track and RTC switched the VIA train into the hole to go around the signal maintainer.
There are no less than 3 signals between Aldershot Station and the derailment site. All have been confirmed to have been working properly at the time of the derailment.
That exact train, driven by that crew is used to being full throttle on that portion of track. The crew has made that trip hundreds of times and they were used to going straight through (not switching) This one time, there was a Signal Maintainer doing some work on the mainline track and so RTC switched the VIA over to go around the Signal Maintainer. The crew of the VIA train was conditioned to just going straight at the timetable speed.
In other words, the crew was complacent due to conditioned behaviour. It happens. But they blew through 3 signals telling them to reduce to 15 MPH. Not one of them noticed and obviosly no-one in the cab was calling out the signals.
I suppose in hind sight (20 20) RTC could have telephoned the VIA and told them, "hey guys, we have to switch you at Signal X this one time because there is work being done on the track ahead, so be aware"
But that's not how the system is designed to work.
Realistically, trains could be updated to the 1990's and be outfitted with a more sophisticated form of "auto-pilot" which would know the position of the switches ahead, track geometry, train properties, etc. and could ensure that the train was being operated correctly, howver, I would expect extreme resistance from the railways as the infrastructure costs would be huge. (Not so much the locomotives, but the tracks themselves and the RTC)
The current signaling system used by trains is turn of the century technology.
I.e. 1899 to 1900 turn of the century.
I have been told that the train was in fact crossing to the passing track.
Never the less, you are correct the switch at that location is a Number 10 switch that as you know is rated at 15 mph instead of a Number 20 which is rated at 45 mph.
Apparently a Signal Maintainer was working on the mainline track and RTC switched the VIA train into the hole to go around the signal maintainer.
There are no less than 3 signals between Aldershot Station and the derailment site. All have been confirmed to have been working properly at the time of the derailment.
That exact train, driven by that crew is used to being full throttle on that portion of track. The crew has made that trip hundreds of times and they were used to going straight through (not switching) This one time, there was a Signal Maintainer doing some work on the mainline track and so RTC switched the VIA over to go around the Signal Maintainer. The crew of the VIA train was conditioned to just going straight at the timetable speed.
In other words, the crew was complacent due to conditioned behaviour. It happens. But they blew through 3 signals telling them to reduce to 15 MPH. Not one of them noticed and obviosly no-one in the cab was calling out the signals.
I suppose in hind sight (20 20) RTC could have telephoned the VIA and told them, "hey guys, we have to switch you at Signal X this one time because there is work being done on the track ahead, so be aware"
But that's not how the system is designed to work.
Realistically, trains could be updated to the 1990's and be outfitted with a more sophisticated form of "auto-pilot" which would know the position of the switches ahead, track geometry, train properties, etc. and could ensure that the train was being operated correctly, howver, I would expect extreme resistance from the railways as the infrastructure costs would be huge. (Not so much the locomotives, but the tracks themselves and the RTC)
The current signaling system used by trains is turn of the century technology.
I.e. 1899 to 1900 turn of the century.
Exactly, depending on someone to look out of the window in this day an age is pretty primitive. Even without an auto pilot, a simple localized radio beacon that shuts of the train if it is going too fast for a signal will save lots of lives.
Unfortunate
With all due respect to the 3 engineers and their families, that is exactly what they are paid to do.
Thats what buss drivers, transport drives do, and thats what I do.
FAST
Exactly, depending on someone to look out of the window in this day an age is pretty primitive. Even without an auto pilot, a simple localized radio beacon that shuts of the train if it is going too fast for a signal will save lots of lives.
With all due respect to the 3 engineers and their families, that is exactly what they are paid to do.
Thats what buss drivers, transport drives do, and thats what I do.
FAST
Yes, however, it doesn't take about a mile to stop a bus or transport.With all due respect to the 3 engineers and their families, that is exactly what they are paid to do.
Thats what buss drivers, transport drives do, and thats what I do.
FAST
With all due respect to the 3 engineers and their families, that is exactly what they are paid to do.
Thats what buss drivers, transport drives do, and thats what I do.
FAST
So what, pilots used to fly planes without computers before as well. Just because someone is paid to do something does not mean that they will do it well, and in the case of mass transportation the consequences are too high. More and more driver aids will show up because people are error prone. How many truck accidents are caused by drivers dozing off at the wheel?
Proportional
And I truly feel bad about what happened, these were all good people, and maybe unfortunatley known by you, but it should not have happened.
FAST
JAMES, transport trucks are spaced a little closer than trains, and they don't have 3 drivers and 3 indicators to slow down.Yes, however, it doesn't take about a mile to stop a bus or transport.
And I truly feel bad about what happened, these were all good people, and maybe unfortunatley known by you, but it should not have happened.
FAST
Error
And again, this is really a shity thing to happen, but should NOT have happened.
FAST
ALL 3 did not doze off at the thottle, plus, there is always 2 in the cab.So what, pilots used to fly planes without computers before as well. Just because someone is paid to do something does not mean that they will do it well, and in the case of mass transportation the consequences are too high. More and more driver aids will show up because people are error prone. How many truck accidents are caused by drivers dozing off at the wheel?
And again, this is really a shity thing to happen, but should NOT have happened.
FAST
they may be been awake enough to hold the dead man's switch but they clearly were not paying attention or even looking out the window. It is pretty hard to miss flashing signals.ALL 3 did not doze off at the thottle, plus, there is always 2 in the cab.
And again, this is really a shity thing to happen, but should NOT have happened.
FAST
Hope for changes
FAST
Agree, but still a very unfortunate outcome for everbody involved.they may be been awake enough to hold the dead man's switch but they clearly were not paying attention or even looking out the window. It is pretty hard to miss flashing signals.
FAST
