'Toxic' Friends...
- Thread starter MissCroft
- Start date
You need to redefine and establish boundries to which also comes down to a mutual respect.
If you feel like a walking ATM, you've enabled it by allowing and feeding into it each and every time an opportunity has arisen to put you in the situation of having to pay.
Not to sound harsh or rude, but you need to redefine borders that have been lost.
The flip of this is... if you know his situation financially and want to include him in plans or invite him out, knowing he doesn't have the money; you are taking on the responsibility of supporting your time together, whether you know it or not. If there's animosity created because of this when he puts you down for what you do... it's not about the "money" but about him being too comfortable and not respecting the "line" or you as a person.
If you want to go out and he says "I don't have the money to" and you say... "It's okay, don't worry about it" and pay, it's not fair to use it as ammunition out of context at a later date.
So, only you know the dynamics of your friendship and the real details surrounding it.
If at the end of the day you want this person in your life... there's always a currency in any relationship (and not always in a monetary valued amount). If the "cost" outweighs the value of his presence in your life; it's not healthy.
If your friendship is worth it and both of you are willing to understand and accept each other (the good and the bad) and appreciate your own unique perspectives and want to work on it, then save it. Otherwise it's not worth it, as it takes both parties to embrace and work on issues that come up by addressing them and moving on.
As far as work goes, he is allowed to have an opinon. However, as a friend; he can accept what you do even if he doesn't like it and understand it's not his place to remind you of his unwanted opinon, but to support you as a friend even if he doesn't approve. You also need to accept he won't always agree with you or what you do, but a bigger person looks beyond as at the end of the day, its your choice. If he can't and must remind you, or constantly let his opinon be known as if it will alter your choices; then it's not healthy for you to be around him.
Sounds like some underlining control issues among other stuff. Not good.
If you feel like a walking ATM, you've enabled it by allowing and feeding into it each and every time an opportunity has arisen to put you in the situation of having to pay.
Not to sound harsh or rude, but you need to redefine borders that have been lost.
The flip of this is... if you know his situation financially and want to include him in plans or invite him out, knowing he doesn't have the money; you are taking on the responsibility of supporting your time together, whether you know it or not. If there's animosity created because of this when he puts you down for what you do... it's not about the "money" but about him being too comfortable and not respecting the "line" or you as a person.
If you want to go out and he says "I don't have the money to" and you say... "It's okay, don't worry about it" and pay, it's not fair to use it as ammunition out of context at a later date.
So, only you know the dynamics of your friendship and the real details surrounding it.
If at the end of the day you want this person in your life... there's always a currency in any relationship (and not always in a monetary valued amount). If the "cost" outweighs the value of his presence in your life; it's not healthy.
If your friendship is worth it and both of you are willing to understand and accept each other (the good and the bad) and appreciate your own unique perspectives and want to work on it, then save it. Otherwise it's not worth it, as it takes both parties to embrace and work on issues that come up by addressing them and moving on.
As far as work goes, he is allowed to have an opinon. However, as a friend; he can accept what you do even if he doesn't like it and understand it's not his place to remind you of his unwanted opinon, but to support you as a friend even if he doesn't approve. You also need to accept he won't always agree with you or what you do, but a bigger person looks beyond as at the end of the day, its your choice. If he can't and must remind you, or constantly let his opinon be known as if it will alter your choices; then it's not healthy for you to be around him.
Sounds like some underlining control issues among other stuff. Not good.
I totally agree. I have enabled his behaviour in a way - I admit that. When he didn't have any money I really didn't mind paying for drinks and cabs, etc. But his financial situation has changed in the last year or so. He now has a decent full-time job and more money but is still behaving in the same manner so I see that as taking advantage of me. I have subtly mentioned it since then and nothing has changed. A few months ago we were at a bar with a couple of other friends. He had a few beers then left because he had get to up early for work. When I went to pay my tab, his drinks were on it. I asked the bartender about it and she said that he told her that I offered to pay and that was a flat-out lie.
I should mention that I rarely ask him to go out and do stuff. Occasionally maybe but more often than not it is him contacting me asking me to go out somewhere. In that case, I should not feel that I have to pay. Also because we hang out in the same places and have similar friends, we often bump into each other. Again, I should not be asked to buy him drinks in this situation IMO. Occasionally I will see him after seeing a client and I think he views it as "Oh, she just made some money so now I can drink for free". He's never said that but I can't shake the feeling that he thinks that way.
It sounds like you need to redefine your expectations and remold the boundaries. He could be guilty by ignorance (prior to you mentioning this to him) but most decent people who value someone else in their life are going to take their feelings into account and understand how their actions might affect them. However circumstances and people change. When they do, it's up to both of you to adjust and embrace OR re-evaluate and walk away.
In this specific case he is a wee bit too comfortable and is taking advantage of you and exploiting your friendship.
Any logical adult would not go out without the ability to cover there end (unless it has been discussed and an understanding on both ends is reached) and if he's able to afford to (which seems to be a shift from the past), he should not only be paying HIS tab but at the very least offering to buy you a drink just out of common courtesy.
Friendships are give and take. It doesn't mean you do things because you expect something in return, but atleast someone offering gives you the ability to acknowledge their intentions and either "accept" or decline, but can appreciate the thought.
The fact he lied is a deal breaker on any level. It's sneaky, coniving and manipulative. The assumption you should just "take care" of it is brave and disrespectful.
In my opinion, money is no object between real friends. If I value someone’s company, I don’t care if I pay or the other party pays. You never know the other person’s life story. He or she may not have the money to go out, but do you as a friend neglect that enjoyment?
Now, if he was your real friend, he would not be insulting you for what you do for a living. He would understand the situation and support you as a friend. If he does not, I really don’t think you should be calling him a friend.
If your friendship between this guy is important to you, take a break from your career, and tell him you don’t have as much money as you once did, and find out if he will buy you a meal? If you know what the outcome will be, then you will also know if he is really your friend or not.
Friendship is not always a 50/50 relationship. And it’s a very complex chemistry of emotions that both parties benefit mutually. For instance, if I was a multi-billionaire and I had a friend who is middle class and for her birthday I buy her a Ferrari, because $300,000 is pocket change for me. And for my birthday, she buys me a $300 dollar watch; everyone would think that is totally uneven. If I was her real friend, I would value the $300 dollar watch, million times more than the Ferrari. The reason is because, she had to work very hard for the $300 dollars, but for me, a Ferrari would be just a dust in my pocket. And I would expect my friend to see me beyond the money that I have, and respect me as a person.
Hope this helps.
Now, if he was your real friend, he would not be insulting you for what you do for a living. He would understand the situation and support you as a friend. If he does not, I really don’t think you should be calling him a friend.
If your friendship between this guy is important to you, take a break from your career, and tell him you don’t have as much money as you once did, and find out if he will buy you a meal? If you know what the outcome will be, then you will also know if he is really your friend or not.
Friendship is not always a 50/50 relationship. And it’s a very complex chemistry of emotions that both parties benefit mutually. For instance, if I was a multi-billionaire and I had a friend who is middle class and for her birthday I buy her a Ferrari, because $300,000 is pocket change for me. And for my birthday, she buys me a $300 dollar watch; everyone would think that is totally uneven. If I was her real friend, I would value the $300 dollar watch, million times more than the Ferrari. The reason is because, she had to work very hard for the $300 dollars, but for me, a Ferrari would be just a dust in my pocket. And I would expect my friend to see me beyond the money that I have, and respect me as a person.
Hope this helps.
Hmm, although it is always good to have a friend, putting this together with what Sleazure wrote earlier perhaps it is time to just engage in activities together: going for a walk or a drive, going for a cup of coffee that don't make you feel you're being used as an ATM.
Part of this is that we all to a certain extent become conditioned like Dr. Pavloff's dogs, and your friend has allowed himself to become conditioned into I don't have to pay for it Chloe will pay for it.
Wow, that whole money thing sounds like an ex-girlfriend I once had...
Glad she's an ex too come to think of it.
Buy me a drink and let's talk, Chloe. 
It's good you recognize he's been a supportive friend and confidant, that's rare to find in a guy. You're able to be open with him, this time you can set him straight a bit more firmly about paying his way now that he has a decent job. Tell him you need to be treated with more respect regarding your line of work, tell him that's one of the reasons you valued his friendship for so many years.
If he doesn't get it, see him less often and don't let him make you feel guilty about it.
It's good you recognize he's been a supportive friend and confidant, that's rare to find in a guy. You're able to be open with him, this time you can set him straight a bit more firmly about paying his way now that he has a decent job. Tell him you need to be treated with more respect regarding your line of work, tell him that's one of the reasons you valued his friendship for so many years.
If he doesn't get it, see him less often and don't let him make you feel guilty about it.
Sounds like maybe he's going through a bad time right now. Time for you to return the favour maybe? "Fading" out of his life gradually is a way for you to feel good and him to feel horrible. Ever feel like you're slowly losing someone and you are powerless to stop it? Worst feeling in the world, and it has a much deeper impact than a single emotional scene where you break it off from him. If you think you can no longer support him because he's become too toxic in your life, then for the love of god confront him, explain how you feel about things, give him a chance to respond and change, and tell him if things remain the same that you just can't be his friend any more. Otherwise, support him like a friend should.
Oh yeah, either way you should definitely cut him off from the cash flow. You aren't husband and wife.
Oh yeah, either way you should definitely cut him off from the cash flow. You aren't husband and wife.
You are being cheap. Whats wrong with picking up a tab or two? Would you rather be drinking at the legion? If you want to save money and still be generous to your friend, I suggest taking him for breakfast or coffee. probably he can't afford your tastes. It is you who therefore should adapt, that is if you value the friendship. If I invite a less well off friend to dinner at a place I know he can't afford I feel it is only reasonable that I treat.
Dear Chloe;All of the above, lol, but particularly the walking talking ATM part. Even on my birthday, I had to buy him drinks because he didn't have enough money. It's not even really about the money. It's more the fact that he occasionally insults me for working as an escort yet is happy to spend some of that money. You know, the more I think about it the more I realize just how toxic it really is. :-(
I didn't want to have the 'big conversation' with him but I guess I jst reached my breaking point. The trip was maybe not the greatest idea as it sort of pushed me over that edge. I really want to deal with it as a mature adult but he seems unwilling to do that (i.e. sulking). The truth is that I'm not sure if I want to be friends with someone who behaves like that.
I thank you guys for your advice - it is helpful.
Chloe XO
I think that you just answered your own question. Yes, you might feel guilty to let go of this friendship. But, is it the same freindship of the past? It seems to me that you have already grown apart from each other, friendship wise. What do you gain, what do you lose? Is it worth you feeling guilty over it? I had some 'friends' who were during the last few times 'toxic' to me, and I decided, with the good advice of my shrink, to let go of them. I do not regret my decision because it has made my life a lot simpler, and I have my self respect back. You will not regret your decison, especially if he is judgemental about your life and decisions. You are too precious to have to suffer through this, IMHO.
I agree with this completely. You should really take a look at your friendship with this guy and see if it is worth it. People do make mistakes and people do have things that they can improve upon themselves. If this person is truly a friend, he would probably try to change his ways to make things better for the sake of the friendship. I think it would be at least appropriate to give him that opportunity as opposed to just simply "breaking-off" the friendship in one quick abrupt moment. Besides 12 years is a long time and I would imagine you maintained that friendship for that long for a reason. If you're keeping him as a friend simply because of guilt then perhaps its time to re-evaluate your friendship. However, if you find there is something genuine about your friendship and that he is actually a decent person then i wouldnt see any harm in sitting down and having a chat about the boundaries that you would like established within your friendship.
Like all things in life relationships take work and effort to grow... friendships are no different.
Perhaps i might have a biased opinion on the matter because i was once on the other end of a similar situation in which i was "cut-off" abruptly from a friendship with no real explanation or chance to work things out. Like your situation we were purely platonic friends. I was the guy that was there for her whenever she needed someone to talk to, needed help running errands, a place to stay or even money and i never once made any advances or asked her for anything in return. I did however made the mistake of telling her one weekend that i was starting to have feelings (even though it was a passing feeling that i regret having). I had no intention of making any movements on it but i thought it would be decent to be honest. Everything was okay for awhile until i lent her money that she desperately needed. 3 days later she broke off our friendship and i still havent received payment back nearly 7 months now. I guess the fact that i told her how i felt changed EVERYTHING she saw in our friendship. Everything i said or did she saw it as some profession of my love for her when it really wasnt my intent. But the abrupt nature of the break off was so sudden and difficult that i had trouble dealing with. I'm a decent guy and i never did anything to harm my friend so i felt that i deserved more than what i got. Even now there really arent many days that go by that i dont think about whether or not our friendship would have survived if i had given a chance to make things right or had i never made my feelings known (however temporary those feelings were).
Friendships are difficult... Casa Nova is right... they are not "THINGS" that you can just acquire or discard... they involve people... people who you once cared for or people who once cared for you. 12 years is a long time and there must be some reason it lasted that long.
But again my opinion is biased..
