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Torture etc.

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spankingman

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Dec 7, 2008
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With the recent news re: torture in Afghanistan or anywhere even here in Canada etc what is your opinion on the subject. Is it needed in some cases to protect other lives or does it violate Human rights etc. as a whole?

Scenario
Your child has been kidnapped ,the Police have the suspect in custody but he won't talk.Every minute that goes by the childs life is in danger. Talking isnt working!!!!!!! WHAT do you want done?

It's a different story when it's close to home. I bet even the most pacifist person would want some sort of physical activity done to save their child.

Its a fine line to walk. I'm afraid

With some of these terrorists the only "rights" they should get are the "Last Rites" OOOPS Sorry ther'e not Catholic,but you get the picture!
 
Depends on what you consider torture. I'm against what I consider torture (beatings, pulling nails, etc) on moral and practical grounds.

However, there are some perfectly legitimate but unpleasant interrogation techniques that can get the job done with no lasting damage.

Remember, information obtained under duress is less reliable if they guy says whatever he thiinks you want to hear. Its not like the movies where you beat a guy till he talks. It has to be corroborated.
 
One of my kids? I'd happily do it myself. And then kill the fucker after my child is safe. Again, happily and without remorse or angst.

In general? Don't agree with it. As the "ticking time bomb" link says, it's never that clear cut in real life. And it leads to unreliable intelligence, as they'll say anything to make the pain stop, including making stuff up they think the interrogators want to hear.
 
spankingman said:
Scenario
Your child has been kidnapped ,the Police have the suspect in custody but he won't talk.Every minute that goes by the childs life is in danger. Talking isnt working!!!!!!! WHAT do you want done?

It's a different story when it's close to home. I bet even the most pacifist person would want some sort of physical activity done to save their child.

Its a fine line to walk. I'm afraid

With some of these terrorists the only "rights" they should get are the "Last Rites" OOOPS Sorry ther'e not Catholic,but you get the picture!
Click to expand...
I think this is a stupid scenerio. Try this one:
A child has been kidnapped and some circumstantial evidence suggests YOU did it. But you are completely innocent. Police have you in custody but you have no idea what they are talking about. Every minute that goes by, the child's life is in danger. Would you want the police to torture you to get more information.

My answer to both scenerios is NO! And if your answer to the first scenerio is yes, then I hope the second scenerio happens to you.
 
torture under most conditions does not work. Eventually the questionee will tell you what you want to hear, regardless of who heéshe is.

The only time that it can be used effectivly is if you can independantly verify some part of the story. If that is possible it can be used as a lever during the torture to force accurate answers, ie., we caught you lieing about this so we will assume that you are lieing about everything , and the pain continues eventually the victim spills his guts ( sometimes litterally) and then you have to sort out the good from the bad.

As a side note the reputation of torturing captives can work as well if not better than actual torture, the problem is that you actually have to publicly torture somebody for it to work.

All that said for the most part torture is a waste of time from an intelligence gathering point of view. Most of the time what ever you pry out of the person is out of date by the time you get it
 
Torture someone and they will say what they think you want to hear

Completely idiotic way to get info in this age of drugs and psychology

Why do not have more advanced methodology then to let 20 year old marines go at you with dogs and a waterboard :confused:
 
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Yoga Face said:
Torture someone and they will say what they think you want to hear

Completely idiotic way to get info in this age of drugs and psychology

Why they do not have more advanced methodology then to let 20 year old marines go at you with dogs and a waterboard befuddles me
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If the purpose was to get information, the use of torture is of course
counter productive and idiotic, as you point out.

But the use of torture is not for information, it is for revenge. Did the americans
not waterboard the Sheik 176 times?
 
Let me narrow the question, if I may: the Taliban in Afghanistan, looking for places in their country to pick a fight, have a choice between a region where they may be tortured if captured, or a region patrolled by Canadian soldiers where they know they are much less likely to be tortured if captured.

Which do they choose?

Yes, torture must be stopped. But it must be stopped in its entirety, not just in regions where Canadian troops are stationed. Providing extra protections for the enemy beyond what is available to them elsewhere can put Canadian troops in more danger than necessary.
 
Anynym said:
Let me narrow the question, if I may: the Taliban in Afghanistan, looking for places in their country to pick a fight, have a choice between a region where they may be tortured if captured, or a region patrolled by Canadian soldiers where they know they are much less likely to be tortured if captured.

Which do they choose?

Yes, torture must be stopped. But it must be stopped in its entirety, not just in regions where Canadian troops are stationed. Providing extra protections for the enemy beyond what is available to them elsewhere can put Canadian troops in more danger than necessary.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, you came up with a new argument for torturing people.
 
Coerced confessions have long since been banned in all Western jurisdictions. This is both for moral grounds and also because coerced confessions are HIGHLY unreliable. People will tell their captors whatever they think the captors want to hear to stop being hurt.

It also leads to sloppy police work. Police will not properly work a case if they believe they can simply beat a confession out of the "usual suspects".
 
spankingman said:
Scenario
Your child has been kidnapped ,the Police have the suspect in custody but he won't talk.Every minute that goes by the childs life is in danger. Talking isnt working!!!!!!! WHAT do you want done?
Click to expand...


In Canada, we offer the suspect money, a lot of money to tell us where is the child. Ok, I'll get serious. The first principle of morality is you do what you have to do to protect your family (yes, I know some will disagree with me). If the suspect is caught on video or eyewitnesses forcing my child into a car, I will do whatever I have to do to make him talk. There is no higher moral than protecting your family.
 
Rockslinger said:
In Canada, we offer the suspect money, a lot of money to tell us where is the child. Ok, I'll get serious. The first principle of morality is you do what you have to do to protect your family (yes, I know some will disagree with me). If the suspect is caught on video or eyewitnesses forcing my child into a car, I will do whatever I have to do to make him talk. There is no higher moral than protecting your family.
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its wrong. its immoral. but i am not myself a moral person. i would hurt someone, but i would do it knowing that its wrong. i wouldn't kid myself thats it justified or that my need supersedes the other persons rights or my duty as a human being- but i would still do it.
 
Speaking of torture, why no outrage from Bob Rae and Jack Layton over what the Iranians did to Canadian journalist Maziar Bahari? Actually, let's hope that Bob and Jack keep their mouths shut because they will probably blame the Canadian army and PM Harper for not giving Bahari adequate protection. Bob and Jack are always blaming the Canadian army and Harper for everything:(.
 
Rockslinger said:
Speaking of torture, why no outrage from Bob Rae and Jack Layton over what the Iranians did to Canadian journalist Maziar Bahari? Actually, let's hope that Bob and Jack keep their mouths shut because they will probably blame the Canadian army and PM Harper for not giving Bahari adequate protection. Bob and Jack are always blaming the Canadian army and Harper for everything:(.
Click to expand...

thanks for the update steven
 
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