This is not a Hate Thread...Honest!!

[zog]

I had a conversation with some people today that wandered into the topic of common (or formerly common) expressions in our language that have derogatory or racist origins.

I realised that there are many expressions, some in everyday use, that originally came into the language as hate terms. We started to try to identify some of these terms but, as often happens, we had to get back to work and the concversation died.

But I've been thinking about it and wonder if you people out there can come up with any.

A simple example would be one which my generation used ferquently in our high school days. Whenever we thought something was uncool or distasteful, we'd say "that's so gay" usually without thinking that our statement would be quite offensive to homosexuals. The items or situations described as "gay" rarely had anything to do with sexual orientation.

Other examples might be the (no longer common) use of the word "Jew" to denote theft or swindling "he jewed me out of $2". Perhaps the expression "call a spade a spade" has historical racial overtones.

The point here is NOT to get into a racial or ethnic flame-fest. I am just trying to see what common expressions have unsavoury origins. If nothing else, this type of discussion might just remind us to be an little more sensitive in our choice of phrases in the future.

Zog.

 

[elaine]

retard, thats so retarded your so retarded. when playing king of the castle, we never took a second glance, except I'd always say my uncles a retard and he's not a ***** lo*ser like you. I never realized until well into my preteen years just how offensive both word, ****los*er and retard were. now they are so many politically correct words for I
do lose tract.

But someone here once mentioned, a wise man does not take offence unless offence was meant.

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

An interesting yet woefully incomplete discussion of the word "niggarly" at : http://www.takeourword.com/Issue026.html#Spotlight

I notice absolutely no reference as to the morphing of this word in the US, especially as it was used as a derogatory description of the slaves. It morphed into a derogatory term as it was often used by whites not as a term of endearment, but a term of contempt. That was a period of oh..easily a couple of hundred years prior to slavery, and then things really got interesting.

There was a lot of psychological and emotional pain dished out on blacks as a result of the use of the "N" word. Mainlining this word was an attempt to remove the derogatory inferences just as the adoption of black in preference to "colored" or negro which were in popular use by whites. Such terms were considered "undesirable" simply because it was felt they were invented by whites. Blacks were suspicious of their intent. Black, was adopted to remove the sting..given that skin color is so much a "preoccupation" in America. Afro-American and African American were terms introduced by blacks that are more reflective of our ethnic origins. It is interesting to note that many blacks, particularly ones with southern roots, have Indian in their ethnic makeup. They marched right alongside of the Seminoles who were forcibly removed from Florida by the just landed Europeans. My folks are from Indian Territory (The state of OKlahoma) and my mother has Cherokee and French in her background. Her grandparents were from Louisiana territory.
The "N" word has been adopted by many African Americans and has been adopted by some of them as a casual term of endearment. Whites shouldn't take offense if they're misunderstood when addressing a person of African-American extraction. Just know, it won't be greeted as a term of endearment.

I know that if I'm addressed in this manner by a white person, that I have a fast CPU. They will be "clocked" on the next cycle.

EBS

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

No,

I think you have the essentials of the introduction. But then there was the inevitable discussion of the word as it evolved in North America, and in particular a discussion of how its origin was construed to be associated with the "N" word.

When emotions run high, I guess some people just don't rush to Websters to find out what was meant..LOL.

EBS

 

[minnie_me]

Chink in the armour

I once used this expression in the presence of some asian friends and they looked at me funny. They have never heard of this British expression before.

 

[duMaurierguy]

"Indian giver"

This would be another term that has permeated in general North American culture. Having delevoped a friendship with someone who is Native Indian since I was in grade school and having been invited to a few 'Powwows', this really is demeaning to such a rich culture and people.

No history leasons here. Any informed individual certainly knows which people got the short end of the stick, time and again. Funny thing, when talking to my friend's uncle (who happens to be an elder in his tribe), I said that my understanding was that 'Canada' was an Indian name. He told me that's what the White man called it. When I asked what his people called it before, his simple reply was; "Ours".

The more dangerous bigot is the one hiding behind closed doors, not the one shouting slurs from the roof top.

 

[onthebottom]

Open the Kimono

I used this on one of my early trips to Japan! Went over about as well as the business card I gave to a very senior banker in Hong Kong with my wife's Christmas list on the back. Oh the ugly American.

OTB

 

[Notion]

Eskimo

Eskimo- A native indian word meaning" raw meat eater",intended to be derogatory to the Inuit.
Somebody should tell Disney. :0

 

[BallsOnFire]

Creatures !

I saw the word "Creatures" was mentioned at an earlier thread. It seems to be the word that tips the scale. Depending on how you say it is the factor. Example: you. & YOU!

I totally agree with this statement: a wise man does not take offence unless offence was meant.(qoute from elaine)

 

[longduck]

Washington State Illegalizes ‘O’ Word

Here's some interesting reading:

Washington State Illegalizes ‘O’ Word
http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=143

Why Oriental is a bad word
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2788/oriental.html

 

[TravellingGuy]

Re: "Indian giver"

I said that my understanding was that 'Canada' was an Indian name. He told me that's what the White man called it. When I asked what his people called it before, his simple reply was; "Ours".

I would have been really surprised to hear this, especially from an elder. Didnt Indians live with the land? They never thought of it as 'ours' because they never believed they owned it, all their traditions, customs, gods all seem to view the land as a living object, not something you own.

As for the word 'canada', I saw one of those Canadian history comercials (you know the ones where they tell us we created basketball),well this one showed the white men coming to Canada and misinterpreting what the indians were saying, 'canada' means village in a native tongue (not sure which though).

 

[duMaurierguy]

"Ours" a deeper meaning...

Travellinguy, you are correct to some extent. The response was not given, I believe, as a witty response but, as one to give me cause to think about his reply. Being in my early teens at the time, he did that in spades! It is a conversation that I will not forget. I guess that's why he was an elder...

 

[Foxhound]

The problem I have is that I don't like to swing in the breeze with the vicissitudes of fashion or political correctness - particularly when it comes to language. Take the word negro. This was the proper non-derisive term for centuries. The preference for the word black arose with the Black Panthers in the late sixties. Why should I accept the language dictates of a radical political sect with whose ideals I disagree? Secondly, I now hear that African-American is the "correct' term. Piss on that, this is Canada! I have no desire to import more American culture (and no, I do not watch the NFL)! Contrast the wannabee rappers and hoopsters who would bastardize the English language with the supporters and members of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People or the United Negro College Fund! Is it the former or latter who have done more for the emancipation of their people? Negro it is!

 

[zog]

Give and take....

I think that there should be a give and take in the choice of language. I agree that certain terms (like "African American") don't appeal to me and I don't care to use them. At the same time (as a Canadian with no African ancestry) I realise that some other terms (e.g. "negro"), while neutral to me, are offensive to others.

I try to find language that will be comfortable for both me and my audience. It's not always easy, but neither are a lot of things.

Zog.

 

[Foxhound]

Elaine! BallsOnFire!

The "wise man" who posted the ancient Japanese proverb that "a wise man takes no offence when none is intended" was Pagan in this thread:

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=20257&perpage=9&pagenumber=5

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

The problem I have is that I don't like to swing in the breeze with the vicissitudes of fashion or political correctness - particularly when it comes to language. Take the word negro. This was the proper non-derisive term for centuries. The preference for the word black arose with the Black Panthers in the late sixties. Why should I accept the language dictates of a radical political sect with whose ideals I disagree? Secondly, I now hear that African-American is the "correct' term. Piss on that, this is Canada! I have no desire to import more American culture (and no, I do not watch the NFL)! Contrast the wannabee rappers and hoopsters who would bastardize the English language with the supporters and members of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People or the United Negro College Fund! Is it the former or latter who have done more for the emancipation of their people? Negro it is!

Yes..and incedibly ignorant you are! It's obvious to most that Canada incorporates cultures from many peoples of the world. Isn't that part of multiculturalism? Even we realize that fact here in the states. Kwesi Mfume who Africanized his name from his given slave surname was a former director of the NAACP, I'm sure would be amused at your observations. These organizations have retained their original names for historic purposes. For those of us who actually understand the purpose and impact of these organizations on our life and society, I'd say you're naive at best. The Panthers had a dramatic impact on social justice in America, just as sure as the ANC had impact in South Africa. I imagine they probably scared the shit out of you. Instead of allowing themselves to be assaulted, they insisted on self defense. For that matter the Black Muslims and Nation of Islam has a profound POSITIVE impact on some segments of black america, although I personally feel no need to embrace them.

Further, I'd remind you that our lady companions in this business have been traditionally refered to as prostitutes and whores..yet we as a matter of enlightenment choose the terms escort and service provider(SP).


EBS

 

[mr. x]

to go back, i wondered if anyone had looked at the true origin of the term "indian giver"...

dumaurierguy mentioned this word as being racist, and it is considered politically incorrect, but i wonder...

most racist (or whatever) terms had their origins in some truth, or perceptions of what was true (i.e., the idea of jews being stingy and cheap had to do with the fact that they were capitalists and traders in the medieval world, where prodiction was controlled by guilds and prices were based on perceptions of fair value rather than what the market weould bear)...

the cliche about blacks having "good rythm" obviously comes from differences between european and african music and culture - european music tends to me melodically based whereas much african music is based on percussion...

this is not to justify such sterotypes, but to understand that stereotypes are often exaggerations of real differences or historical events, or cultural biases.

to move on to "indian giver" - i do not think that indians (i.e., aboriginal people, not people from india) is actually a comment on the way in which the US mistreated the aborignal peoples by making treaties, and then breaking them - i do not think that anyone has ever thought that it was the the other way around!

has anyone ever come across anything detailing the real origin of this term?

 

[Big Papa Smurf]

Piss on that, this is Canada! I have no desire to import more American culture (and no, I do not watch the NFL)! Contrast the wannabee rappers and hoopsters who would bastardize the English language with the supporters and members of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People or the United Negro College Fund! Is it the former or latter who have done more for the emancipation of their people? Negro it is! [/B]

Haitian Creole is a bastardization of French. Papimiento and Chavacano are bastardizations of Castillian Spanish. Hawai'ian pidgin is a bastardization of the English language.

Why are they bastardizations? Its simple. Exploitation of native peoples by a colonial power over a long period of time. You don't like the bastardization of your precious "Queen's English", yet you fail to mention Australian English which has their own idioms, and lexicology. However, you are quick to jump on African-Americans usage of English. So what gives?

Ebonics is nothing more than an evolution of the English language seen through the eyes of African-Americans living in poverty. Languages are dynamic, not static.

 

[Foxhound]

Samaritano!

"Yes..and incedibly ignorant you are!"

Perhaps you might want to learn to spell correctly before casually calling any other poster ignorant.

"It's obvious to most that Canada incorporates cultures from many peoples of the world. Isn't that part of multiculturalism?"

So? What's your point?

"Kwesi Mfume who Africanized his name from his given slave surname...."

Is it not the case that slaves were generally not allowed surnames since the slaveholder didn't want to encourage family ties? In which case Mfume was callously dispensing of a name chosen by a great grandfather of his. Nice!

You might also want to reflect on the detail that Mfume's grandfather, and yours, would have been proud of being a negro. You, on the other hand, now seem eager to embrace a vocabulary your grandfather would have abhorred! I respect my own grandfather more than that.

Do you also casually call your buddies nigger? It's very fashionable these days you know!

"... I'm sure would be amused at your observations."

I myself am amused by any man who changes his name. That's the kind of thing done by Hollywood actors!

"These organizations have retained their original names for historic purposes."

Precisely my point! Historic reasons are a very good reason indeed! The shifting tides of political correctness are no reason to change a language!

"The Panthers had a dramatic impact on social justice in America...."

Really? Was it by spouting Marxism to defend themselves when charged with murder? Did any of Eldridge Cleaver, Huey Newton or Bobby Seale escape conviction on felony charges?

"I'd say you're naive at best....I imagine they probably scared the shit out of you."

Yes. I'm sure! I'm going to have the shit scared out of me as a punk teenager in Canada by something I read about in Time magazine! I'm not the one who's naive! You should be giving yourself the reality check.

"... just as sure as the ANC had impact in South Africa."

The ANC was another Marxist organization. You seem to have a curious affinity for these. I myself supported Chief Buthelezi and Inkatha, which represented the proud Zulu people - the tribe that did the most to fight British imperialism in South Africa. Had the Zulus allied themselves with the equally proud Boer farmers, together they could perhaps have driven the Brits into the sea!

"Further, I'd remind you that our lady companions in this business have been traditionally refered to as prostitutes and whores..yet we as a matter of enlightenment choose the terms escort and service provider(SP)."

Here once again you might want to check my signature byline!

You've shown yourself to be nothing but a pompous windbag and stuffed shirt since you first began posting on this board and now you have the gall to call me ignorant! Ripped used to enjoy calling you an *******. While I may agree with Ripped I have an even better idea. I've got Cdn.$500 that says I can whip your ass at any test of general knowledge. Are you game the next time you're in Toronto?

Big Papa Smurf!

"You don't like the bastardization of your precious "Queen's English"....

Actually I'm neither particularly fond of the Queen nor of the way she speaks English!

"... yet you fail to mention Australian English which has their own idioms, and lexicology."

I rather like the Australians! As a former penal colony, they should have coshed their Brit gaolers a long time ago though!

"Languages are dynamic, not static."

BTW, how many languages do you speak anyway? How's your Lithuanian? French?

 

[Don]

The Panthers had a dramatic impact on social justice in America, just as sure as the ANC had impact in South Africa. I imagine they probably scared the shit out of you. Instead of allowing themselves to be assaulted, they insisted on self defense. For that matter the Black Muslims and Nation of Islam has a profound POSITIVE impact on some segments of black america, although I personally feel no need to embrace them.

You can say that the Nazi's had a profound POSITIVE impact on Germany for a time (restored German pride, nearly eliminated unemployment, made Germany a world power, restored order) and scared the shit out of some people (Jews) but doesn't mean that they are a group that should be respected or listened to.