Things that make flub/clown/danmandnottyboi/pecker smile

[basketcase]

So his answer is no because the Palestinians don't want it to (I guess the idea of self determination doesn't apply to one group there).

I guess for flub, that Palestinians should have their own state isn't enough, they should have Israel too.

Of course if he really wanted to examine his 'democracy', 5.7 million Jewish Israelis, 1.5 million Arab Israelis, 2.5 million Palestinians in the WB and Gaza. I guess flub thinks that means that Jews should have the demographic right to the entire region.

Of course realism and common sense would suggest that a two state solution is the way to go and all that's left to do is for the two sides to negotiate how this would work. Realism and common sense aren't flub's strengths though so he'll continue to try to find any way to vilify Israel and advocate it's destruction.

 

[toguy5252]

Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again.

Here you go.

No state has any inherant right to exist.
There is no right that says Canada exists. It exists as long as the people here decide it should. If Quebec decides to leave, there is no inherant right that says they can't. People decide if states should exist.

The right for Israel to exist as a sovereign state should depend on its full population deciding it should exist.
I back democratic rule, so if a majority of all people living within its borders accept it as a sovereign state, then I, in my infinite power, will acquiesce.

When soveriegn states begin to act like despots, not representing the people, taking rights away or committing state terrorism or other war crimes then that state should be held accountable for its actions and if not, it should not be supported as a state.

So in other words you have chosen obfuscation rather than to answer a direct question with a direct answer. I suppose then you do not think there should be a Palestinian state either.

I would say disingenuous but it really more pathetic.

 

[basketcase]

...
When soveriegn states begin to act like despots, not representing the people, taking rights away or committing state terrorism or other war crimes then that state should be held accountable for its actions and if not, it should not be supported as a state.

Is this the part where flub starts arguing that Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, ... should lose the right to be a state?

 

[flubadub]

In your point #2 if you are honest you are not denying the ethnic cleansing took place you are trying to justify it, which is just sickening.

I am objecting only to your claims the Jewish Exodus was ethnic cleansing.
I do not deny or try to less the impact of the exodus, but I have not found any reputable reference to it anywhere as 'ethnic cleansing'.

Even wiki doesn't label it as such, and includes quotes from Jews who left Arab countries saying they weren't even refugees.
Germany in WWII - ethnic cleansing
Rwanda - ethnic cleansing
Israel today - ethnic cleansing
Arab nations in 1947/48 - nope. Sure there was hatred and anti-semitism and violence but it wasn't a systematic attempt to remove one segment of the population backed by their governments. Exodus, yes, ethnic cleansing, nope.

 

[toguy5252]

I am objecting only to your claims the Jewish Exodus was ethnic cleansing.
I do not deny or try to less the impact of the exodus, but I have not found any reputable reference to it anywhere as 'ethnic cleansing'.

Even wiki doesn't label it as such, and includes quotes from Jews who left Arab countries saying they weren't even refugees.
Germany in WWII - ethnic cleansing
Rwanda - ethnic cleansing
Israel today - ethnic cleansing
Arab nations in 1947/48 - nope. Sure there was hatred and anti-semitism and violence but it wasn't a systematic attempt to remove one segment of the population backed by their governments. Exodus, yes, ethnic cleansing, nope.

In your obviously exhaustive research on Wikipedia you must have over looked the following:

* In the same war itself, all Jewish towns that were occupied by Jordan (Gush-Etzion, the Jewish Quarter (Jerusalem), etc.) and Egypt (Kfar Darom), have been destroyed and their population was either deported, captured, killed or executed. Unlike the Arab population of Israel, among which many (but not the majority) kept living in their homes under Israeli rule, for the Jews there were no exceptions: none of these Jewish towns kept existing under the Arab rule.[64][65][66]. This was a limited success in terms of the intended Arab plans according to Arab sources. After the Partition vote, Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine. They spoke of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".[67] On the eve of the Arab armies invasion, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, "describing the fate of the Jews" even declared: 'This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.'[68]

* Between the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Six Day War in 1967, there was a Jewish exodus from Arab lands, that has been described as an "ethnic cleansing".[

You are pathetic.

 

[fuji]

I am objecting only to your claims the Jewish Exodus was ethnic cleansing.

Well then I object to your claim that the Palestinian Exodus was ethnic cleansing. The same levels of violence. The same incitement from leaders to flee. The same theft of property. The same eviction from homes. In fact the persecution of Jews was worse than that of Palestinians, and while Israel permitted many Palestinians to remain in their homes and gave them full rights as citizens, several Arab countries did not allow any Jews to remain and did not permit them to have equal status as citizens. The level of violence, theft, and eviction was worse against Jews than against Palestinians.

However I'm charitable so let's say it was similar in nature: Whatever you want to call one, the other is the same thing.

I am happy to call both an "exodus" and say that neither was ethnic cleansing, and I am happy to say that both were a form of ethnic cleansing. You can't, however, have it both ways: The same treatment of two different peoples must be given the same name whatever name you pick.

 

[basketcase]

...
Germany in WWII - ethnic cleansing

Agree

Rwanda - ethnic cleansing

agree

Israel today - ethnic cleansing

pathetic claim, especially since Israel has 20% of their population made up of the people you claim they are cleansing.

Arab nations in 1947/48 - nope.

I think enough facts have been provided that establish similar conditions that caused the Nakba. If one is ethnic cleansing, the other is.

Beyond that, toguy has rightfully pointed out theat Jordan ethnically cleansed the Jewish population from the Old City of Jerusalem (a population that had been a continual Jewish presence in Jerusalem since biblical times) and commited massacres of Jewish towns.

 

[Mervyn]

The same treatment of two different peoples must be given the same name whatever name you pick.

Maybe ethnic expulsion would be a better term ? ?

 

[nottyboi]

Agree

agree
pathetic claim, especially since Israel has 20% of their population made up of the people you claim they are cleansing.

Well that is because the cleansing is still underway. It is a slow process due to external scrutiny. Based on your logic Iran has a population of up to 40,000 jews ergo all this anti-semitism emenating from Iran cannot be true.... !!! lol

 

[basketcase]

Well that is because the cleansing is still underway. It is a slow process due to external scrutiny. Based on your logic Iran has a population of up to 40,000 jews ergo all this anti-semitism emenating from Iran cannot be true.... !!! lol

Strange thing is that the Arab Israeli population is growing a little faster than the Jewish Israeli population which means that Israel must be involved in one of the worst ethnic cleansing attempts ever.

Either that or all of these ethnic cleansing claims are complete fabrications.

 

[flubadub]

So his answer is no because the Palestinians don't want it to (I guess the idea of self determination doesn't apply to one group there).

I guess for flub, that Palestinians should have their own state isn't enough, they should have Israel too.

Of course if he really wanted to examine his 'democracy', 5.7 million Jewish Israelis, 1.5 million Arab Israelis, 2.5 million Palestinians in the WB and Gaza. I guess flub thinks that means that Jews should have the demographic right to the entire region.

Of course realism and common sense would suggest that a two state solution is the way to go and all that's left to do is for the two sides to negotiate how this would work. Realism and common sense aren't flub's strengths though so he'll continue to try to find any way to vilify Israel and advocate it's destruction.

I didn't say no, nice try.

And I don't care what you call whatever state ends up there, as long as it respects the rights of all who live there.
Are you arguing against democratic representation?
Are you arguing that the need for a Jewish state trumps all other human rights?

If some kind of two state solution can be worked out to all parties satisfaction, why wouldn't I be satisfied with that result. However, given the 'facts on the ground', there isn't enough land left to create a viable Palestinian state unless Israel gives up a large number of settlements, and you'd have to be a fool to believe that that would happen. The two state solution is dead. Netanyahu will sabotage the process again, as he did the Oslo accords (and there is video footage to back that claim up), if it looks like its going somewhere.


Oh, and in your population calculation don't forget the right of return.

 

[rama putri]

You know the friggen world isn't fair. Whine, whine, whine. OK whatever. Israel is bad, Palestine is good. Can Palestinians just move along now and develop their own country without depriving their own citizens of basics? And stop telling me Israel is doing that to you. OK, whatever. Fix what you have, be peaceful, be better than your oppressors, grow an economy, get some culture, stop voting criminals into leadership positions, enough with lobbing bombs over the wall, stop focusing on war and hate, start focusing on your own people, and stop whining. It's getting tiring. Really.

 

[flubadub]

Rama, would you like a little cheese with that whine?

 

[nottyboi]

Strange thing is that the Arab Israeli population is growing a little faster than the Jewish Israeli population which means that Israel must be involved in one of the worst ethnic cleansing attempts ever.

Either that or all of these ethnic cleansing claims are complete fabrications.

Well as someone earlier mentioned, it was a side effect of annexing east Jerusalem. I guess the Israelis expected all the Arabs to leave as they had in the past...but they stayed, so Israel is doing the best to try and push them out, but the world is watching and the buggers breed like rabbits.

 

[basketcase]

I didn't say no, nice try.

And I don't care what you call whatever state ends up there, as long as it respects the rights of all who live there.
Are you arguing against democratic representation?

Why are you arguing against democratic representation? Why don't the Jews have the right to live in their own state?

Are you arguing that the need for a Jewish state trumps all other human rights?

You are as funny as notty. It seems to me that the Jewish state is the only one in the region that respects human rights. Fully democratic, equal rights regardless of religion, independent judiciary...

If some kind of two state solution can be worked out to all parties satisfaction, why wouldn't I be satisfied with that result. However, given the 'facts on the ground', there isn't enough land left to create a viable Palestinian state unless Israel gives up a large number of settlements, and you'd have to be a fool to believe that that would happen.

Then call me a fool - actually you have already called me worse on many occasions. The last Israeli offer had Israel keeping about 8% of the West Bank in exchange for an equal amout of Israeli land including a land corridor to Gaza. The Palestinians have said they would be willing to accept land swaps amounting to 2%. I would bet the eventual peace will be in the 3-5% range.

The two state solution is dead.

As long as Hamas has power, they will do their best to prevent it but the majority of world opinion - and more importantly opinion of both IOsraelis and Palestinians support two states.


Oh, and in your population calculation don't forget the right of return.[/QUOTE]

 

[nottyboi]

Strange thing is that the Arab Israeli population is growing a little faster than the Jewish Israeli population which means that Israel must be involved in one of the worst ethnic cleansing attempts ever.

Either that or all of these ethnic cleansing claims are complete fabrications.

Well as someone earlier mentioned, it was a side effect of annexing east Jerusalem. I guess the Israelis expected all the Arabs to leave as they had in the past...but they stayed, so Israel is doing the best to try and push them out, but the world is watching and the buggers breed like rabbits.

 

[basketcase]

Well as someone earlier mentioned, it was a side effect of annexing east Jerusalem. I guess the Israelis expected all the Arabs to leave as they had in the past...but they stayed, so Israel is doing the best to try and push them out, but the world is watching and the buggers breed like rabbits.

Actually not. The Arab Israelis have a growth rate of about 2.6% per year. That is not because of East Jerusalem but every year, there are 2.6% more Israeli Arabs.

I know you won't listen to facts but here is a comparison to the growth rates of nearby Arab countries (all from wikipedia):
Lebanon - 1.26%
Egypt - 1.75%
Jordan - 2.33%
Saudi Arabia - 1.85%
Turkey (not Arab but nearby and democratic) - 1.45%

Sure seems to me that Israel is in fact providing conditions that have their Arab population growing faster than any of their neigbouring countries.