Things that make flub/clown/danmandnottyboi/pecker smile

toguy5252

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Palestinian refugees frozen in time, addicted to pity


Robert Fulford August 7, 2010 – 8:16 am

‘The Arab countries love the Palestinians, praise them and pray for them. They just don’t want them moving permanently into their neighbourhoods’

Refugees? Canadians, even if their families have lived here for centuries, know something about refugees. We know Hungarians, we know Vietnamese, we know many others. We admire their energy and their accomplishments. Observing them can be a bracing lesson in human tenacity under adverse circumstances.

But that pattern doesn’t cover Palestinian refugees. They are a special case. For many reasons, various populations across the planet are displaced; only the Palestinians cling to their “refugee” status decade after decade. They present themselves as helpless victims of Israeli aggression. They await rescue — as they have been awaiting it for three generations, since Israel was founded in 1948. Members of other history-battered groups choose to live by an urgent ethic: Get up, get going, make a new life. Palestinians have a different approach: Sit down, wait, stay angry till the world provides for you.

Andrew Roberts, a much-admired British historian, raised the issue of Palestinian refugees in a speech excerpted in the National Post on Tuesday. He argued, correctly, that Arab governments “are rich enough to have economically solved the Palestinian refugee problem decades ago.” The 5,000 or so members of the Saudi royal family could probably handle it by themselves.

Why haven’t they done so? They much prefer to let Palestinians remain poor. Every wretched, ill-fed and ill-housed Palestinian can be used as a living rebuke to Israel.

The Palestinians are the only people who have their own private section of the UN, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). It defines “refugee” as someone who lived in Palestine between June, 1946, and May, 1948, and “lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.” The definition includes all their descendants. Entirely credible numbers don’t exist, but UNRWA believes there were 711,000 such refugees in 1948, and now more than 4.7-million.

The Arab countries love the Palestinians, praise them and pray for them. They just don’t want them moving permanently into their neighbourhoods. The Arab League advises Arab states to deny citizenship to Palestinians, “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland.” They pretend it’s a favour. It also means Arabs can hire Palestinian workers when they need them and send them home when the economy sags.

The treatment of the Palestinians has become a major crime of omission committed by the rich Arabs against the poor in collusion with the UN. It has created a permanent underclass, living on meagre public assistance, growing more numerous every day but never put in a position where they can create a healthy, productive community. They are permanent grudge-bearers, who teach their children to yearn for a lost paradise.

Children in school learn the official line (and no other) on the Nakba (“disaster”) of 1948, when peace-loving Arabs were rudely ejected from their own land by an alien military force, European Zionism. Every year, the pageants commemorating the Nakba grow larger and the stories about the sins of Israeli soldiers more appalling. No Palestinian wants to know that there were Jews in the region for rather a long time, or that the Arabs started the war of 1948.

The Palestinian national narrative depicts the Arabs of Palestine as history’s tragic losers, the unfairly dispossessed. Nowadays, it’s routine to compare the Nakba with the Holocaust in Europe. And around the world, a vast constituency of anti-Zionists and anti-Semites provide a willing audience for any lie the imaginative Palestinians can concoct.

No one in politics or diplomacy who hopes to win a few friends on the Arab side can acknowledge this historic con game. Anyone who tells the truth will be accused of Islamophobia, that infinitely convenient rhetorical invention.

And no politician, ever, compares the Palestinians to other refugees. Sol Stern, trying in a recent City Journal article to bring some perspective to the Palestinian question, noted that in 1945 about 11-million ethnic German civilians, living in Central and Eastern Europe, were expelled from their homes “and force-marched to Germany by the Red Army, with help from the Czech and Polish governments. Historians estimate that 2 million died on the way.” The survivors built new lives as best they could. Some still speak of reparations they deserve. None argue that they should live in squalor until they receive justice.

The enemies of Israel have taught the world to pity the Palestinians and grant them an almost sacred position among the victims of colonialism. They deserve pity, of course, but pity for what their fellow Arabs have done to them.

Read more: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...rozen-in-time-addicted-to-pity/#ixzz0wPLvvioR
 

danmand

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Neither should they take the palistinians just because Israel wants to relocate them. Should Canada make room for all jewish people from the US, if the US wanted to get rid of them?
 

toguy5252

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Neither should they take the palistinians just because Israel wants to relocate them. Should Canada make room for all jewish people from the US, if the US wanted to get rid of them?
Ive got a news flash for you. Canada did take in many thousands of Jews who were displaced after the war including 4 of my grandparents. Between Canada, the US, Europe and Australia hundreds of thousands of refugees were taken in and they built good and productive lives for themselves and their children. This is equally true of many other groups who have been displaced over the years.

You might benefit from actually reading the article instead of simply repeating talking points.
 

danmand

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Ive got a news flash for you. Canada did take in many thousands of Jews who were displaced after the war including 4 of my grandparents. Between Canada, the US, Europe and Australia hundreds of thousands of refugees were taken in and they built good and productive lives for themselves and their children. This is equally true of many other groups who have been displaced over the years.

You might benefit from actually reading the article instead of simply repeating talking points.
And likelwise you might read my post before responding to it.
 

flubadub

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Its just another case of how Israel has screwed itself.

I'd be very happy if there were a way for Palestinian's and Israeli's to live in peace over there, but this is just another case where Israeli aggressions have only given them more problems. If in 1948 they figured out how to deal with the Palestinians and didn't attempt to drive them out of the country the problem wouldn't have grown from 700,000 to 4.5 million. And yes, they could have been absorbed into the surrounding countries, but without reparations from Israel, what country would want to?

Just like the article in the globe today about the growing call for a one state solution.
Prominent voices opposed to relinquishing the West Bank and Jewish settlements are calling instead for its annexation, with citizenship for Palestinians living there
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/two-states-are-better-than-one/article1669819/

Israel has screwed itself by derailing all peace talks (see Netanyahu's video confession) in order to continue its expansionist policies. Sure, now they've grabbed a lot of land they didn't have when the borders were drawn 60 years ago but now they're screwed because there isn't enough land left to establish a viable Palestinian state. Their successful aggressions have only lead them directly down a road leading to Apartheid.

And no, it doesn't make me smile. There will be a lot of grief before anything remotely like a peaceful solution can be accomplished on both sides. And that could have been avoided many years ago.
 

nottyboi

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Ive got a news flash for you. Canada did take in many thousands of Jews who were displaced after the war including 4 of my grandparents. Between Canada, the US, Europe and Australia hundreds of thousands of refugees were taken in and they built good and productive lives for themselves and their children. This is equally true of many other groups who have been displaced over the years.

You might benefit from actually reading the article instead of simply repeating talking points.
Funny how you critiize the Palis for hanging on to their refugee status, while jews keep on about the holocoust....when it happened many years before the Pali displacement. So how come you guys can't forget YOUR genocide yet you criticize the Palis for going on about theirs, when it is still essentially underway? The fact is, perception of time is different in the middle east. The Palis know in the long run they will win.. they always have.
 

toguy5252

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Funny how you critiize the Palis for hanging on to their refugee status, while jews keep on about the holocoust....when it happened many years before the Pali displacement. So how come you guys can't forget YOUR genocide yet you criticize the Palis for going on about theirs, when it is still essentially underway?
Exactly the same thing. 6 million Jews were killed and millions other became refugees. Instead of being in camps the countries which accepted them took them in and made them citizens where they built productive lives and had families and raised productive children and so on and so on. Yes. Exactly like the treatment of the Palestinians by Lebanon and Jordan etc.

You can keep making all the excuses you like but the Palestinians plight has been caused by their Arab brethren not the Israelis.
 

toguy5252

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Its just another case of how Israel has screwed itself.

I'd be very happy if there were a way for Palestinian's and Israeli's to live in peace over there, but this is just another case where Israeli aggressions have only given them more problems. If in 1948 they figured out how to deal with the Palestinians and didn't attempt to drive them out of the country the problem wouldn't have grown from 700,000 to 4.5 million. And yes, they could have been absorbed into the surrounding countries, but without reparations from Israel, what country would want to?

Just like the article in the globe today about the growing call for a one state solution.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/two-states-are-better-than-one/article1669819/

Israel has screwed itself by derailing all peace talks (see Netanyahu's video confession) in order to continue its expansionist policies. Sure, now they've grabbed a lot of land they didn't have when the borders were drawn 60 years ago but now they're screwed because there isn't enough land left to establish a viable Palestinian state. Their successful aggressions have only lead them directly down a road leading to Apartheid.

And no, it doesn't make me smile. There will be a lot of grief before anything remotely like a peaceful solution can be accomplished on both sides. And that could have been avoided many years ago.
Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state within the 1967 borders. Your comments might be more meaningful if you were to answer.
 

nottyboi

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Exactly the same thing. 6 million Jews were killed and millions other became refugees. Instead of being in camps the countries which accepted them took them in and made them citizens where they built productive lives and had families and raised productive children and so on and so on. Yes. Exactly like the treatment of the Palestinians by Lebanon and Jordan etc.

You can keep making all the excuses you like but the Palestinians plight has been caused by their Arab brethren not the Israelis.
they left AFTER their oppressors were defeated. They were also give a STATE... man you are sooooooo full of BS.
 

toguy5252

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they left AFTER their oppressors were defeated. They were also give a STATE... man you are sooooooo full of BS.
Are you living in some parallel universe. They left after they were liberated from concentration camps by the Allies. How in the world does that change the fact that hundreds of thousands of refugees were accepted by countries and built new lives instead of hanging onto something which could never be reinstated. You are simply proving Fulford's point.
 

nottyboi

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Are you living in some parallel universe. They left after they were liberated from concentration camps by the Allies. How in the world does that change the fact that hundreds of thousands of refugees were accepted by countries and built new lives instead of hanging onto something which could never be reinstated. You are simply proving Fulford's point.
So when are the allies going to liberate the Palis and offer them residence? The Jews that were liberated from concentration camps were in many cases educated and skilled. The fact is, they were actually highly desirable refugees. The Palis have few skills and would be a massive liability to any country that takes them.
 

shapeup1

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The Lebanese have a special place in their hearts for the Pals. Many here propably don't remember this. 40.000 Lebanese were killed by the Pals.

Arafat’s Massacre of Damour
By Online Friday, January 2, 2009

Do you not remember Damour Lebanon. Let me remind you. Arafat and the PLO plunged Lebanon into “massacres, rape, mutilation, rampages of looting and killings. Out of a population of 3.2 million, some 40,000 or more people had been killed, 100,000 wounded, 5,000 permanently maimed



In January of 1976, the destruction of Damour, a town of some 25,000 was completed by the PLO within two weeks. “The priest of Damour, Father Mansour Labaky desperately trying to save people of the town telephoned Kamal Jumblat [one of the Lebanese leaders], in whose parliamentary constituency Damour lay. ‘Father, Jumblat said, ‘I can do nothing for you, because it depends on Yasser Arafat’ ” . All efforts were useless. In the morning following the first night of invasion, when more than fifty people were massacred, Father Labaky “despite the shelling managed to get to the one house, to bring out some corpses. An entire family had been killed, the Canan family, four children all dead, and the mother, the father, and the grandfather. The mother was still hugging one of the children. And she was pregnant

The eyes of the children were gone and their limbs were cut off. No legs and no arms” (123). In total, 582 people were massacred in the storming of Damour. Father Labaky went with the Red Cross to bury them. “Many of the bodies had been dismembered, so they had to count the heads to number the dead. Three of the men they found had had their genitals cut off and stuffed in their mouths”

Azmi Zrayir, the PLO Member, an organizer of the terrorist attack in March, 1975 on the Savoy Hotel in Tel Aviv in which seven people were killed and eleven wounded, was remembered in Lebanon as “a thief, a murderer, a rapist and a torturer.” Being a PLO headquarters commander in Tyre, “he formed a football team into which he conscripted teenage children. The players were forced to gratify Zrayir’s sexual appetites. He debauched both girls and boys. At least one child who defied him was shot dead” (144).
More…




Damour lay across the Sidon - Beirut highway about 20 km south of Beirut on the slopes of a foothill of the Lebanon range. On the other side of the road, beyond a flat stretch of coast, is the sea. It was a town of some 25,000 people, containing five churches, three chapels, seven schools, private and public, and one public hospital where Muslims from near by villages were treated along with the Christians, at the expense of the town.

On 9 January 1976, three days after Epiphany, the priest of Damour Father Mansour Labaky, was carrying out a Maronite custom of blessing the houses with holy water. As he stood in front of a house on the side of the town next to the Muslim village of Harat Na’ami, a bullet whistled past his ear and hit the house. Then he heard the rattle of machine-guns. He went inside the house, and soon learned that the town was surrounded. Later he found out by whom and how many—the forces of Sa’iqa, consisting of 16,000 Palestinians and Syrians, and units of the Mourabitoun and some fifteen other militias, reinforced by mercenaries from Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and a contingent of Libyans.

Father Labaky telephoned the Muslim sheikh of the district and asked him, as a fellow religious leader, what he could do to help the people of the town. ‘I can do nothing,’ he was told ‘They want to harm you. It is the Palestinians. I cannot stop them.’

While the shooting and some shelling went on all day, Father Labaky telephoned a long list of people, politicians of both the Left and the Right, asking for help. They all said with apologies and commiserations that they could do nothing. Then he telephoned Kamal Jumblatt, in whose parliamentary constituency Damour lay. ‘Father,’ Jumblatt said, ‘I can do nothing for you, because it depends on Yasser Arafat.’ He gave Arafat’s phone number to the priest. An aide answered, and when he would not call Arafat himself, Father Labaky told him, ‘The Palestinians are shelling and shooting at my town. I can assure you as a religious leader, we do not want the war, we do not believe in violence.’ He added that nearly half the people of Damour had voted for Kamal Jumblatt, ‘who is backing you,’ he reminded the PLO man. The reply was, ‘Father, don’t worry. We don’t want to harm you. If we are destroying you it is for strategical reasons.’
 

flubadub

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Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state within the 1967 borders. Your comments might be more meaningful if you were to answer.
Its not worth answering this question.
The two state solution is dead, the only question remains will Israel try to create a fully apartheid state or will they grant equal rights to Palestinians.
 

basketcase

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So when are the allies going to liberate the Palis and offer them residence? The Jews that were liberated from concentration camps were in many cases educated and skilled. The fact is, they were actually highly desirable refugees. The Palis have few skills and would be a massive liability to any country that takes them.
Of course they are undesirable because they have been denied education or opportunity in the countries where they were born - who's fault is that?

You might also look at the uneducated refugees that Israel took in such as the Jews from Yemen who had no idea of what an airplane even was before they got on one. Of course the Yemenese Jews were accepted and given the chance to become full citizens.
 

basketcase

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The Lebanese have a special place in their hearts for the Pals. ..
Of course judging by Lebanese laws and the treatment the Palestinians have received in Lebanon, the feeling is mutual (how many died when the LAF destroyed that huge refugee camp a couple years ago?). I am sure that most of them look at Gaza as a wonderful promised land in comparison.
 

basketcase

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Its not worth answering this question.
The two state solution is dead, the only question remains will Israel try to create a fully apartheid state or will they grant equal rights to Palestinians.
In other words, his answer is clearly no.

The one state solution is only a wish by Hamas and their compatriots.
 

fuji

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Neither should they take the palistinians just because Israel wants to relocate them. Should Canada make room for all jewish people from the US, if the US wanted to get rid of them?
Yes. The only criteria for a valid refugee claim is a legitimate fear of persecution. There should be no quota.
 

basketcase

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Neither should they take the palistinians just because Israel wants to relocate them. Should Canada make room for all jewish people from the US, if the US wanted to get rid of them?

Israel doesn't want to relocate them. They have been born for generations in Arab countries and in most cases have almost no rights. What would be expected for any other refugee group is the host nation provides them with rights and opportunity.

As for Canada and taking refugees, the Jews of the WWII era was one of the few time that Canada has not provided a willing open door for refugees. I am sure that a quick look at the front page stories about Tamil refugees will show you how countries should deal with refugees. You will see from the group from the last boat has had their cases assessed, have been provided assistance, places to live, opportunities for jobs and education, access to health care, and in a few years we will see many of them receiving Canadian citizenship. The Palestinians (such as those in Lebanon) on the other hand are living in the same camps where their parents or even grandparents were born, are provided almost no education, minimal health care, very limited employment possibilities and no hope. Even if the Arabs don't want to give them citizenship they should at least give them an opportunity at a real life.
 

flubadub

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Even if the Arabs don't want to give them citizenship they should at least give them an opportunity at a real life.
The only problem with this is that the burden of supporting the refugees falls on Arab countries that had nothing to do with making them refugees. Maybe if Israel would pay reparations towards re/settlement it would make sense.
 

flubadub

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In other words, his answer is clearly no.

The one state solution is only a wish by Hamas and their compatriots.
Nice try. Just because I think the 1967 borders are a dead issue doesn't mean that I answer no.
And at present, the people pushing the one state solution are the right wing Israeli parties.
 
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