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The Real ME Problem.....

onthebottom

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I think Gaza is a bloody and shameful sideshow to this main issue:

OTB

The Other Housing Crisis
By Gershom Gorenberg


January/February 2009

Why can’t Israel and the Palestinians make peace? There are many complicated reasons, but the facts on the ground point to a simple answer: It’s the settlements, stupid.

[UPDATE, Jan. 5: At the moment, the temptation is to look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with a zoom lens that shows the battles in Gaza up-close, in detail. But a zoom lens flattens the picture you see, and entirely leaves out the panoramic view.

In the panoramic view, Israel’s strategic problem remains ending its rule over the Palestinians safely, in order to avoid the alternative of an unstable binational state. That means leaving the West Bank, and giving up settlements. Indeed, the reason Ariel Sharon insisted on leaving Gaza unilaterally three years ago is that any negotiated agreement with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas would have meant taking down most settlements. But the unilateral withdrawal empowered Hamas, and is at the root of the current crisis.

The longer the challenge of removing West Bank settlements is evaded, the more overwhelming it becomes.

Each time I drive out of Jerusalem into the West Bank, it strikes me: The hills are changing. Israeli settlements are redrawing the landscape—daily, insistently. While governments change, while diplomatic conversations murmur on and stop and begin again, the bulldozers and cranes continue their work.

From my home in West Jerusalem, the road that Israelis use to head south toward Hebron runs through two tunnels in the mountains. Known simply as the Tunnel Road, it was built in the mid-1990s during the Oslo peace process, when Bethlehem was turned over to Palestinian rule and Israelis wanted a way to bypass the town on their way to settlements that remained in Israeli hands.

A turn from the Tunnel Road takes you past the Palestinian village of Hussan to Beitar Illit, a settlement covering two hills. The streets are lined with apartment buildings, faced in rough-cut, yellowish-white stone, all with red-tile roofs, so alike they could have been turned out by the same factory. In 1993, when Yitzhak Rabin and Yasir Arafat shook hands and peace seemed close enough to touch, about 4,000 people lived in Beitar Illit. Now, 34,000 live here, and more will soon move in.

The message written on the landscape is simple: Every day, the settlements expand. Every day, Israel grows more entangled in the West Bank. To a large degree, the Israeli and Palestinian publics have accepted the need for a two-state solution. But time, and the construction crews, are working against it. No one knows exactly where the point of no return is—when so many Israelis will have moved into so many homes beyond the pre-1967 border that there is no going back. But each passing day brings that tipping point nearer. If a solution is not achieved quickly, it might soon be out of reach.

The failure of slow-motion diplomacy can be told in numbers. In 1993, when the Oslo process began, 116,000 Israelis lived in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (excluding Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem). Seven years later, when negotiations collapsed, the settler population had risen to 198,000.

Watching this steady march, Ehud Olmert, then Ariel Sharon’s deputy prime minister, stunned Israelis in late 2003 by renouncing his lifelong commitment to keeping Gaza and the West Bank under Israeli rule. “We are approaching a point where more and more Palestinians will say: ‘There is no place for two states between the Jordan and the sea,’” he warned. Instead, he said, they would demand equal rights in a single, shared political entity—one person, one vote. The only way to preserve a Jewish state was to withdraw, he argued. By then, according to the Israeli Interior Ministry, there were 236,000 settlers.

Olmert’s declaration presaged Sharon’s decision to withdraw from Gaza. In 2006, Olmert was elected prime minister. Despite the Gaza evacuation, the settler population was then more than 253,000.

Last year, when Olmert resigned and elections were announced, the number of settlers in the West Bank had passed 290,000, living alongside 2.2 million Palestinians. (Another 187,000 Israelis lived in annexed East Jerusalem, next to 247,000 Palestinians.) By the time the next prime minister takes office, more than 300,000 Israelis are likely to be living in the West Bank, with the number continuing to climb.

Why do the settlements keep growing? In part, because it has been hard for Israelis to accept the pre-1967 borders. Successive leaders have hoped to hold onto significant pieces of the territory seized in the Six Day War. Olmert, despite his warning in 2003, came to office seeking a border that would roughly follow the security barrier that Israel is building through the West Bank. Officially intended to keep Palestinian suicide bombers out of Israel, the barrier loops around clusters of large suburban settlements, putting places such as Beitar Illit on the Israeli side of the de facto border. While negotiating with the Palestinians, Olmert encouraged building in settlements inside the fence.

But building has also continued in smaller settlements beyond the fence—the strongholds of the settlers most committed to permanent Israeli rule of the West Bank. They have taken the initiative in expanding their communities. But they also enjoy backing from within the civil service. The Housing Ministry, for instance, still provides subsidized mortgages for homes in such settlements. An entrenched bureaucratic culture trumps orders from the top.

Olmert lacked the strength to crack down on that bureaucracy or risk confrontation with the settlers. Of his potential successors, Benjamin Netanyahu is the candidate of the pro-settlement right, and Tzipi Livni, the candidate of Olmert’s Kadima Party, has shown no signs that she is willing or able to stop the building in the absence of a peace deal.

The settlers’ growing power makes it harder for any Israeli leader to act. The head of the Shin Bet security agency recently described “very high willingness” among settlers “to use violence—not just stones, but live weapons—in order to prevent or halt a diplomatic process.” He was articulating a country’s half-spoken fears: Withdrawal involves more than the social and financial costs of moving hundreds of thousands of people. It poses the danger of civil conflict, of battles pitting Jews against Jews.

The more settlers, the greater the danger. The longer the wait, the more settlers. The more settlers, the more hesitant politicians are to talk about evacuating them, much less do anything else about them. It’s anybody’s guess where the point of no return lies.

But there are no good alternatives to pulling back. Olmert’s plan to redraw the borders, with fingers of Israeli land extending to major settlements, would slice up Palestinian territory, while the smaller, more radical settlements would need to be evacuated. Some observers still cling to a one-state solution—a fantasy held by those who believe that nationalism is about to fade away. Such a state would teeter between communal violence and mere political deadlock as Jews and Palestinians would try and fail to form a stable government.

So, time is in short supply. As U.S. President Barack Obama enters office, he might be tempted to put off dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But delay may mean finding the road to a solution closed. The alternative is to exert pressure on the Israeli government to freeze settlement—and then move quickly toward a final-status agreement.

Of course, the greatest responsibility falls on Israeli leaders. The next prime minister will have the choice of learning from Olmert’s unfulfilled pledge or repeating his failure to act. If Israel is to withdraw from the West Bank, the essential first step is to order an immediate stop to settlement construction. Confronting the settlers will require great courage. Yet failing to do so risks Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. That’s the lesson written on the hills.
 

y2kmark

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May 19, 2002
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Posting something that makes sense??

Your right wing neocon asshole friends are going to disown you dude!!:eek:
 

onthebottom

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y2kmark said:
Your right wing neocon asshole friends are going to disown you dude!!:eek:
But I don't have any right wing neocon friends.... assholes, well a couple maybe.....

OTB
 

scouser1

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Dec 7, 2001
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the article is spot on, this bunch of wacky welfare cases who hold a lot of clout in Israel and give little or nothing in return are a major obstacle to peace, just as much as Hamas is, unfortunately its the US government that could hold a lot of sway with Israel and really pressure them on expanding settlements but for decades has only given lip service to Palestinian concerns.
 

Inferno

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Mar 24, 2002
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scouser1 said:
this bunch of wacky welfare cases.... are a major obstacle to peace, just as much as Hamas is,...
Just as much? Are you sure about that?

I haven't read about any settlers launching rockets into the Palestinian territories lately...

Yes, I will admit that their presence in the territories is an obstacle to peace, but it should also be noted that they wish to live in peace with their neighbours and do not carry out clandestine attacks against the Palestinians.

BTW, I know that you are a teacher and I just hope that you are not exposing your students to your hateful, one-sided views.
 

scouser1

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Dec 7, 2001
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Inferno said:
Just as much? Are you sure about that?

I haven't read about any settlers launching rockets into the Palestinian territories lately...

Yes, I will admit that their presence in the territories is an obstacle to peace, but it should also be noted that they wish to live in peace with their neighbours and do not carry out clandestine attacks against the Palestinians.

BTW, I know that you are a teacher and I just hope that you are not exposing your students to your hateful, one-sided views.

you dont need to launch rockets when you are the bully on the street?? the settlers wish to live in peace with their neighbours!!! hahaha thats classic, dont you mean they wish to leave with the pieces of their neighbours.

And yes I am a teacher in fact I teach my students everyday about how it is glorious to blow yourself up and kill other children in order to reach heaven :D

ok Baruch Goldstein wannabee back to raising money for the welfare cases wackos and come back when you can post something intelligent and not a personal attack
 

Inferno

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Mar 24, 2002
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It wasn't a personal attack. It was an expression of concern for the innocent, impressionable minds you purport to educate but probably poison.

You, however, DID launch a personal attack by calling me a "Baruch Goldstein wannabee back to raising money for the welfare cases wackos", whatever that is supposed to mean.

And don't speak to me about intelligence, TEACHER, until you can not only post something fair and balanced, but utilizes correct grammar and punctuation, as well.
 

onthebottom

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scouser1 said:
the article is spot on, this bunch of wacky welfare cases who hold a lot of clout in Israel and give little or nothing in return are a major obstacle to peace, just as much as Hamas is, unfortunately its the US government that could hold a lot of sway with Israel and really pressure them on expanding settlements but for decades has only given lip service to Palestinian concerns.
Clearly the right in Israel is playing for time and the reality on the ground argument (which it is winning).

Hamas and what passes for Palestinian political representation (which is piss poor at best) seems to think time is on their side. Launching rockets (and shitty rockets at that) at Israeli civilians just gives the right wingers (or more dangerous, the moderates who want to look tough) an excuse to strike back. If Hamas thinks this is a PR game they're wrong, Israel doesn't care and the real power in the world is not going to stop Israel, as we've seen this week. The only chance I see for a Palestinian state is for them to make their deal quickly. If they wait another 4-8 years there won't be any West Bank left to give up.

OTB
 

scouser1

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Dec 7, 2001
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if the Israeli extreme right thinks its going to win in the long run by just building more settlements, they need to reconsider their tactics. As it stands 200 thousand plus Jewish settlers in a sea of some 2.5 million Palestinians, whats that going to look like in about 5 to 10 years??
 

onthebottom

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scouser1 said:
if the Israeli extreme right thinks its going to win in the long run by just building more settlements, they need to reconsider their tactics. As it stands 200 thousand plus Jewish settlers in a sea of some 2.5 million Palestinians, whats that going to look like in about 5 to 10 years??
They're going to push those millions of Palestinians farther from mother Israel and expand farther and farther into the West Bank to the point where a two state solution isn't viable. Push them all the way to Jordan.

Don't for a minute think time is on the Palestinians side, demographics are but time is not.

OTB
 

K Douglas

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Jan 5, 2005
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In the Camp David accords of 2000, Ehud Barak was willing to give the Palestinians 91% of the West Bank after 10-25 years. That would have meant abandoning 63 settlements in the West Bank. Arafat rejected and didn't even counter offer. Israelis saw this as a slap in the face and decided to expand their settlements on the premis that the Palestinian authority was against any peace agreement. Between 2000 and 2006 that's when you saw the biggest spike in the settler population. Part of this was done for security purposes as well - Israel is using these settlers as "shields" to the rest of the population.

I believe this is a major impediment to the peace process and is in contravention of the 4th Geneva Convention. I blame Israel here 100%.
 

Asterix

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Aug 6, 2002
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I think the ship may have sailed on any realistic political or practical possibility of the Israelis giving up the on West Bank. The settlements there have grown to nearly 300,000. The bigger issue for Israeli Jews is that they are running out of time. Sometime after 2020 they will become a minority in their own country, and if a permanent Palestine state has not been established before then, will leave the government three choices. Give the Arab Israelis the right to vote, cleanse the country ethnically by moving them elsewhere, or officially establishing apartheid.
 

K Douglas

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Jan 5, 2005
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Asterix said:
I think the ship may have sailed on any realistic political or practical possibility of the Israelis giving up the on West Bank. The settlements there have grown to nearly 300,000. The bigger issue for Israeli Jews is that they are running out of time. Sometime after 2020 they will become a minority in their own country, and if a permanent Palestine state has not been established before then, will leave the government three choices. Give the Arab Israelis the right to vote, cleanse the country ethnically by moving them elsewhere, or officially establishing apartheid.
Arab Israelis have the right to vote. They have representation in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court.
 

Asterix

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K Douglas said:
Arab Israelis have the right to vote. They have representation in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court.
My mistake. I should have said grant full voting rights to everyone living in Israel and the Palestinian territories.
 

onthebottom

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Asterix said:
I think the ship may have sailed on any realistic political or practical possibility of the Israelis giving up the on West Bank. The settlements there have grown to nearly 300,000. The bigger issue for Israeli Jews is that they are running out of time. Sometime after 2020 they will become a minority in their own country, and if a permanent Palestine state has not been established before then, will leave the government three choices. Give the Arab Israelis the right to vote, cleanse the country ethnically by moving them elsewhere, or officially establishing apartheid.
I'm wondering if Israel might just do a unilateral withdrawl from the West Bank except where there are large concentrations of settlers (ala Gaza). This would allow Israel to push the facts on the ground as the solution without having to negotiate Jerusalem and right of return and would address the 2020 issue (which is real).

OTB
 

Don

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The real ME problem is that there are a bunch of religious crazies over there. Darwin is letting nature weed out the weak(minded).
 

onthebottom

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Don said:
The real ME problem is that there are a bunch of religious crazies over there. Darwin is letting nature weed out the weak(minded).
Unfortunately the breeding is faster than the weeding.....

OTB
 

Asterix

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onthebottom said:
I'm wondering if Israel might just do a unilateral withdrawl from the West Bank except where there are large concentrations of settlers (ala Gaza). This would allow Israel to push the facts on the ground as the solution without having to negotiate Jerusalem and right of return and would address the 2020 issue (which is real).

OTB
Drawing artifical boundaries rarely works, least of all in the ME. Bottom line is that the Arab populations will never agree or be satisfied with some part of one area distant or detached from another. They want to be joined. This is the issue is Gaza. They can't get out because there is no exit point. Some have described as the biggest prison in the world.
 
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