The Province of Toronto

[laser47]

Don't forget that the 905 area code extends well beyond the traditional suburbs of Toronto.
York, Peel and Durham Regions may want to be involved but leave those of us living in Hamilton-Wentworth, Niagara or Haldimand-Norfolk alone.
We don't want to be dragged into your mess just because of our area code.

 

[fuji]

Don't forget that the 905 area code extends well beyond the traditional suburbs of Toronto.
York, Peel and Durham Regions may want to be involved but leave those of us living in Hamilton-Wentworth, Niagara or Haldimand-Norfolk alone.
We don't want to be dragged into your mess just because of our area code.

LOL, yeah, it makes more sense to say "GTA".

What should probably happen is that Toronto goes independent and then each of the surrounding regions makes its own decision as to whether to join the Province of Toronto or stay as part of Ontario. I bet Mississauga, Markham, and Richmond Hill would opt into Toronto, while other area municpalities might go either way.

 

[Shallow Throat]

On the positive side, all of the money (res and bus taxes) stays here. On the negative side, I am sure Toronto council (or whatever new gov't we would have) would still manage to screw everything up.

 

[fuji]

On the positive side, all of the money (res and bus taxes) stays here. On the negative side, I am sure Toronto council (or whatever new gov't we would have) would still manage to screw everything up.

The federal and provincial governments take $11 billion more out of Toronto in taxes than they pay back in services, and that's just Toronto--add the GTA on top of that if they were to join the Province of Toronto, similar story there. The rest of Ontario and the rest of Canada basically suck money from Toronto. I'm not sure what percent of that is provincial--perhaps $4 billion? Toronto would have to screw up pretty badly on a deal that sees an extra $4 billion stay in the city. Even if they squandered half of it we'd be better off than today.

Backwater hicks such as the guy who raised this would be left having to carry their own water, but in my opinion that is as it should be.

 

[basketcase]

Of course the Conservatives want Toronto to be it's own province. It is the only way in the near future that they can become Ontario's government.

 

[DATYdude]

I think there are good aspects to the idea.

Could we please try to make a few jokes about this though?

1. New Ontario Legislature to be the parking lot of the Timmies in Bracebridge.
2. Queens Park to revert to it's real name: A park for old queens?

Come on, hit me with some others... let's not let this pointless thread - cause it ain't gonna ever happen - be a total waste...

 

[benstt]

The federal and provincial governments take $11 billion more out of Toronto in taxes than they pay back in services, and that's just Toronto--add the GTA on top of that if they were to join the Province of Toronto, similar story there. The rest of Ontario and the rest of Canada basically suck money from Toronto. I'm not sure what percent of that is provincial--perhaps $4 billion? Toronto would have to screw up pretty badly on a deal that sees an extra $4 billion stay in the city. Even if they squandered half of it we'd be better off than today.

Backwater hicks such as the guy who raised this would be left having to carry their own water, but in my opinion that is as it should be.

I prefer the federal government use their defense money all around the country, not just where the bank towers are. It just seems like a better way to go. But hey, I have backwater hick roots, so it could just be me.

 

[fuji]

I prefer the federal government use their defense money all around the country, not just where the bank towers are. It just seems like a better way to go. But hey, I have backwater hick roots, so it could just be me.

Most federal money goes into social programs.

 

[basketcase]

I prefer the federal government use their defense money all around the country, not just where the bank towers are. It just seems like a better way to go. But hey, I have backwater hick roots, so it could just be me.

How exactly would federal defense spending change if Toronto was a province? Still the same places at risk. In fact we would have to spend more to add the Bracebridge Timmies/New provincial legislature to the list.

 

[benstt]

Most federal money goes into social programs.

And I'm sure Toronto gets a good chunk of that, they have plenty of elderly, unemployed, kids, hospitals, universities, etc. What is stupid is to expect to get a net gain out of an upper level of government. Between Defense, government operations, and debt servicing, you lose 37% right off the bat.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/afr-rfa/2009/afr-rfa09_1-eng.asp#highlights

 

[poker]

Given that the rest of the province is a hole into which Toronto throws money...

Toronto has its hand in the rest of the provinces pockets whether you chose to acknowledge it or not..... If you want to rent any retail space in malls or strip malls in most small towns.... your calling an office in Toronto.

Cheers!

 

[fuji]

And I'm sure Toronto gets a good chunk of that, they have plenty of elderly, unemployed, kids, hospitals, universities, etc. What is stupid is to expect to get a net gain out of an upper level of government. Between Defense, government operations, and debt servicing, you lose 37% right off the bat.

Nope, that's not it. The explanation is to be found in the higher per-capita incomes in the GTA (Toronto and 905 both) compared to the rest of the province. Our progressive tax system is designed to transfer money from richer individuals to poorer folks and it naturally results that richer places (like Toronto) subsidize poorer places (like Owen Sound). If Toronto (or Toronto+GTA) were to separate then we would still have money sucked out of the area by the Federal level, but as our own provincial tax agency we would automatically keep our own top tier tax money that Ontario otherwise takes from us and forks over to people in Owen Sound.

You can check for yourself the per capita income levels in Toronto and GTA versus rural Ontario and then perform a simple tax calculation to estimate for yourself what the difference in tax collected is.

 

[xssive]

This idea was floated about 9 years ago by Mel Lastman. At the time he was laughed at for it but I'm starting to agree with this idea.

Compared to other U.S. cities, Toronto operates at a disadvantage. In the U.S. all the cities have to pay for are police and fire, plus the costs of their municipal administration. The state pays for transit, roads, infrastructure social assistance, etc. Since amalgamation all that has been downloaded on Toronto to pay for by the province. The Mike Harris government really screwed Toronto by dumping all those costs on the city and then giving them a few lump sum payments to ease things in. It hasn't worked. In the 70's when I first moved here, a common refrain about Toronto was that it was New York city run by the Swiss. How many people would say that today? Our roads have desintegrated, our services have degraded, I live next to a park where the bulbs in the lamps haven't been changed in 5 years. They burn out and are not replaced. The park used to be very clean and well maintained, now it gets cleaned up 3 times a year and the plants aren't maintained at all. This is in a tourist area I might add. Anyone who's lived here a long time will have noticed as things start falling apart and when things don't get maintenance they will break and then replcing it will cost more if it can be afforded. The TTC has stagnated as a result of losing that money from the province.

I've traveled the world and I've noticed the city isn't not just keeping up, it's actually falling behind in every way. Since amalgamation every mayor for the city has had to go to the province with hat in hand. The city is a large complex organization so waste is inevitable but there is also a point in which it can only be so efficient. Lack of funding is killing this city slowly. I would love to see a mayor with a real vision of what Toronto should be in 10-20 years and push us in that direction, however no one can because they don't have money to plan for the future. This city is running at a deficit and that takes so much effort to keep going that no one can afford the time to look for the future.

Toronto being its own province has to be a consideration for the greater good of the GTA, province and country. There are many examples of cities that are successful states (as in country) and provinces (ie. Singapore, Hong Kong). I'm sure the rest of the country will poo-poo this idea and say Toronto just thinks it's so superior and important but who cares, they will hate us anyways.

 

[benstt]

If Toronto (or Toronto+GTA) were to separate then we would still have money sucked out of the area by the Federal level, but as our own provincial tax agency we would automatically keep our own top tier tax money that Ontario otherwise takes from us and forks over to people in Owen Sound.

You can check for yourself the per capita income levels in Toronto and GTA versus rural Ontario and then perform a simple tax calculation to estimate for yourself what the difference in tax collected is.

It is not simple. You'd need the complete distribution of income, for the regions. Ditto with the social benefits - who is getting it, and how much by region. If you have a study that has done this, it would be interesting to read.

As an indication, if I look at Bruce County versus the Toronto Census divisions at StatsCan, I see:

Employment Rate: 60.6% Bruce versus 60.1% Toronto
Unemployment Rate: 5.3% versus 7.6%
% Persons Low Income Before Tax: 8.7% versus 25.4%
Median Income: $24,142 versus $24,544

So, more people want to work in Bruce County, and are gainfully employed, but they make a more moderate income (fewer highs and lows) compared to Toronto.

Toronto may have more wealthy people, but it has a lot of low income people too.

There's no doubt that money will get transferred from those with it to those without. That's how the system works.

 

[fuji]

they make a more moderate income (fewer highs and lows) compared to Toronto.

Our tax system takes FAR less money from jurisdictions with moderate incomes than it does from jurisdictions with highs and lows. If you have two people earning $25k total combined taxes owing is $3006 according to the calculator on taxtips.ca, but if you have one person earning $35k and one earning $15k it's $4970. If one person earns the whole $50k and the other earns nothing taxes owing are $9340, three times more tax than when it's split between two peoplel.

I would guess that per-capita tax extracted from Toronto is nearly double what comes out of Bruce.

Here's a data point: "In Toronto, the lowest 10% had an average of $9,600 while those in the highest 10% had an average of $261,000. The average income of the top 10% was higher in Toronto than in any other city in the country".

The tax owing on $261000 is $102016, it takes 33 unemployed people to balance out that one individual in terms of tax per capita.

Conclusion: Toronto should opt out of the Ontario tax grab and keep that money for its own residents.

 

[benstt]

Our tax system takes FAR less money from jurisdictions with moderate incomes than it does from jurisdictions with highs and lows.

Yes, agreed, Toronto chips in more than Bruce does per capita. But, what you miss in your thinking is that Toronto has more demands on the public purse than Bruce does - the low income and unemployed populations are correspondingly higher in Toronto. So, Toronto likely is getting more assistance per capita as well.

Bruce doesn't have the income highs or lows, but if Bruce residents are living a life with a lower per-capita income than Toronto doesn't necessarily mean that they are getting social assistance, or that Toronto is subsidizing them. That's the leap in logic that you need to examine.

Again, if you have a study that shows the proper examination of this, it would be interesting to read.

 

[fuji]

An independent Toronto could also take steps to prevent the influx of unemployed and homeless from surrounding communities. Specifically would require proof of residency before forking out Toronto healthcare or welfare. We would thus support our own residents when they fell on hard times, but send back to Bruce country any unemployed from that region who decided it would be preferable to be homeless in Toronto.

This may sound cold hearted but it is in fact unfair that Toronto winds up shouldering the burden of welfare for the entire province, and an independent Toronto would be empowered to do something about that.

I don't think there are any studies that focus specifically on Toronto vs. Ontario at a purely provincial level, but there are studies that document the transfer of wealth out of Toronto to the rest of the country at the federal level. Unfortunately an independent Toronto would still be subject to the Federal wealth transfer, we would only save on the Provincial transfers.

 

[C Dick]

So fuji, the obvious solution for that problem is for Toronto to separate not just from Ontario, but from Canada also, and be its own country. It would be a city-state, like Monaco.

With respect to your tax analysis, you could be right, but I think it is more complex than that. Your reasoning makes sense on the high side, in that the top tier pay way more tax per person. But the bottom tier consume way more. The real dregs of society that are constantly in contact with the police, social services, childrens aid, etc, cost a vast amount. 100 people in Toronto might include a couple of super earners in the 100, where Bruce was 100 middle income earners. But the Toronto 100 would also include a few who consumed a lot of resources. Perhaps some of those dregs rode the bus in from Bruce, but likely so did some of the super earners too.

And Toronto would not be cold-hearted and keep out the dregs, Toronto is way more socialist than that, they would be taking in all they could get their hands on, and over-taxing the super earners, who would leave. Imagine David Miller with the power to set income tax rates.

 

[Samurai Joey]

It's a little uncertain to me what specific benefits Toronto would gain as a province, apart from a wider base of taxation (and this would no doubt be counterbalanced by payments in equalization). It's worth keeping in mind that Toronto is highly integrated with the surrounding municipalities (both urban, suburban, and even rural), economically and increasingly culturally and demographically as well.

A more meaningful move would be a partition of Ontario into 2 provinces: Northern Ontario (comprising of all areas of Ontario north of Georgian Bay or Lake Huron) and Southern Ontario. These two regions have very different economies, cultures and sense of identity, so it would make sense for these two areas to separate, if we are really serious about considering this.

Incidentally, in the US there were similar debates about partitioning Michigan into 2 states: Lower Michigan (consisting of the part of the state west of Windsor, bounded by Lake Michigan, Lake Huron, and Lake Erie) and Upper Michigan.

 

[OnTheWayOut]

What the fuck is wrong with this country? Quebec wants to be a country smack in the middle of the country it is now part of. Toronto wants to be a province. The grass is always greener i guess. What's next? BC wants to swap land mass with Alaska????? Since 80 % of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US border how about they make a few extra states out of that land and let the rest freeze? Or maybe just extend NY, Michigan, etc an extra 100. Mama mia!