The Leafs Acquire Berehowsky...Again
- Thread starter The Doctor
- Start date
It's the one knock I have against Quinn is that he should let young defensemen develop in the minors and not keep them sitting in the press box. They show enough to keep them around and then he never plays them. It's almost as if he was told to leave Coliaccovo in the minors at all cost and it's probably going to pay off for him.
Jackman's stats with the Leafs:The Doctor said:
71 GP, 2 G, 6 A, -21
That's over a little more than a year and a half, in years where an NHL calibre defenseman should be starting to make his mark, playing for a playoff calibre team.
Dempsey's stats with the Leafs:
48 GP, 2G, 12A, +14
That's over the course of four seasons spanning SIX NHL years.
Dempsey had *extremely* limited callups with the Leafs, and has played more in BOTH seasons with Chicago than he ever did with Toronto. This shows you that he's probably a better player than Quinn thought he was, or that Chicago's a much worse team - probably the truth is a little of both. His point totals - 14 points over a little more than half a year - aren't anything special, but at least show he can play. His plus-minus was good. Again, even if he didn't really *prove* himself with the big club, he certainly didn't *disprove* himself. It's too bad Quinn just wasn't enamoured of the guy.
Looking at the numbers, it seems Jackman *has* had chances, but has done nothing. Look at it this way - take that composite stat for Jackman, and say that was his season total at the end of this year. The guy plays almost a full season, gets 8 points, and is a -21 on a good to very good team. ?! He'd be gone! You'd be wondering why the coach let him play so much.
There's no comparison.
I always had this feeling that Dempsey had a 'skeleton in the closet' or something ie. drinking problem, etc. and that was why Quinn shunned him and used only when hed *had* to.
Maybe the same for Jackman?
Maybe the same for Jackman?
To clear up the confusion, and my lack of proper editing over the course of multiple posts 
, I'd have to say that Dempsey proved he could play, but not decisively, and certainly not to Quinn's liking. To my mind, yes. To Pat's, no. Look, he's no Bobby Orr. He's an average defensive player with perhaps slightly above average defensive tools - that's my analysis, anyway.
I think the numbers show that Jackman has proved that, at this point, he CAN'T play at an NHL level.
As for Antropov / Colaicovo for Boughner / O'Neill, I'm not a big fan of that one - you're giving up two young players who are almost certain to have reasonable NHL careers barring injury (that's a big point against Antropov, I'll concede), for two older *very* middle of the road players.
I'd be gunning for Gonchar, a bona fide star.
, I'd have to say that Dempsey proved he could play, but not decisively, and certainly not to Quinn's liking. To my mind, yes. To Pat's, no. Look, he's no Bobby Orr. He's an average defensive player with perhaps slightly above average defensive tools - that's my analysis, anyway.I think the numbers show that Jackman has proved that, at this point, he CAN'T play at an NHL level.
As for Antropov / Colaicovo for Boughner / O'Neill, I'm not a big fan of that one - you're giving up two young players who are almost certain to have reasonable NHL careers barring injury (that's a big point against Antropov, I'll concede), for two older *very* middle of the road players.
I'd be gunning for Gonchar, a bona fide star.
Jackman had his chance at the beginning of the year to play a regular shift and he blew it. He looked lost most of the time. When Pilar came back, Jackman moved down the depth chart and nobody ahead of him has played bad enough to warrant putting Ric back in.
Getting Berehowsky isn't a big move by any stretch of the imagination, but Drake seems to have picked up his game a little in recent years, and has the kind of experience that could be useful should he be called into service in the playoffs.
Getting Berehowsky isn't a big move by any stretch of the imagination, but Drake seems to have picked up his game a little in recent years, and has the kind of experience that could be useful should he be called into service in the playoffs.
Oh, here's another telling stat, and one that probably tells you more about why Quinn didn't like Dempsey very much. I'll compare with Jackman, just cause - again, using just numbers they put up with the Leafs:
Jackman - 71 GP, 54 PIM
Dempsey - 48 GP, 8 PIM (!) - this is Lady Byng territory, folks
This tells you that Nathan's just not a hard-nosed defender - the kind Quinn likes. You can't play hard in your own zone and take only eight minutes in penalties over 48 games - it really just isn't possible. Now, if you're Tomas Kaberle, and can fall out of bed and log 40 or 50 points at the end of a season, that kind of thing can be overlooked.
Jackman - 71 GP, 54 PIM
Dempsey - 48 GP, 8 PIM (!) - this is Lady Byng territory, folks
This tells you that Nathan's just not a hard-nosed defender - the kind Quinn likes. You can't play hard in your own zone and take only eight minutes in penalties over 48 games - it really just isn't possible. Now, if you're Tomas Kaberle, and can fall out of bed and log 40 or 50 points at the end of a season, that kind of thing can be overlooked.
Uh, Scubadoo? Pittsburgh's GF-GA = -101. At 21 minutes a game, his share should be -33 or so (discounting power plays - see below). He's playing WELL above average for that team. Nobody who plays that much has a plus-minus so good. Tarnstrom, who leads the team in ice time, sports a -28. Lots of players with SIGNIFICANTLY less ice time have worse numbers. Drake's plus-minus, in context, is good.
(Using actual plus-minus numbers, PIT's a -422, which means that Drake, playing 1/3 of every game, should be a -28 or so - you can rough this out, and the numbers are about the same.)
Toronto's a +21 overall. Jackman's -11 came in only 29 games, averaging less than 20 minutes per contest. He was EASILY their worst defenseman, with BY FAR the worst plus-minus. You can say this another way - when Jackman was on the ice, Toronto tended to play very poorly, with respect to their average play this year. This is to contrast with Berehowsky - when he's been on the ice, Pittsburgh has played much better than they've tended to this year.
Now, the only thing you might say at this point is that the player who was EASILY Toronto's worst defenseman might still be better than one of Pittsburgh's best defenseman.
You might ...... but would you??? When Toronto's defensive corps is clearly not it's strength?
Come on, guys, plus-minus is an individual statistic that's contributed to by everyone else on the ice, including your goaltender. Of course, Berehowsky's play contributes to the overall team play, which has been woeful. But, the reality is, he hasn't been dragging the team down. A better player *might* have been doing more to bring them up, but Berehowsky can only do so much.
Pittsburgh is a WOEFUL team, with easily the worst goaltending in the league this year. Scubadoo, you think this *might* have contributed to his bad plus-minus?
This analysis ignores the power play, which a player may contribute to with no regard to his plus-minus, and which affects a team's overall GF-GA - the average NHL team scores as many PP goals as it allows, though, so this is a wash. Properly, you should still account for a *player's* contribution on the PP, though - a fact which makes Gonchar, for example, more valuable than his plus-minus (which still isn't all that bad).
You'd have to say that Berehowsky's worth more on the PP than Jackman, wouldn't you - even by a little bit? So, this is even MORE of an indicator that Drake's more valuable.
One more time: Jackman had a HIDEOUS plus-minus. Drake, not so hideous.
(Using actual plus-minus numbers, PIT's a -422, which means that Drake, playing 1/3 of every game, should be a -28 or so - you can rough this out, and the numbers are about the same.)
Toronto's a +21 overall. Jackman's -11 came in only 29 games, averaging less than 20 minutes per contest. He was EASILY their worst defenseman, with BY FAR the worst plus-minus. You can say this another way - when Jackman was on the ice, Toronto tended to play very poorly, with respect to their average play this year. This is to contrast with Berehowsky - when he's been on the ice, Pittsburgh has played much better than they've tended to this year.
Now, the only thing you might say at this point is that the player who was EASILY Toronto's worst defenseman might still be better than one of Pittsburgh's best defenseman.
You might ...... but would you??? When Toronto's defensive corps is clearly not it's strength?
Come on, guys, plus-minus is an individual statistic that's contributed to by everyone else on the ice, including your goaltender. Of course, Berehowsky's play contributes to the overall team play, which has been woeful. But, the reality is, he hasn't been dragging the team down. A better player *might* have been doing more to bring them up, but Berehowsky can only do so much.
Pittsburgh is a WOEFUL team, with easily the worst goaltending in the league this year. Scubadoo, you think this *might* have contributed to his bad plus-minus?
This analysis ignores the power play, which a player may contribute to with no regard to his plus-minus, and which affects a team's overall GF-GA - the average NHL team scores as many PP goals as it allows, though, so this is a wash. Properly, you should still account for a *player's* contribution on the PP, though - a fact which makes Gonchar, for example, more valuable than his plus-minus (which still isn't all that bad).
You'd have to say that Berehowsky's worth more on the PP than Jackman, wouldn't you - even by a little bit? So, this is even MORE of an indicator that Drake's more valuable.
One more time: Jackman had a HIDEOUS plus-minus. Drake, not so hideous.
Its a fair deal. The Leafs get a slight edge up on the offensive side; but yes the guy is injury-prone.
You gotta feel for Jackman. He is a decent player, but as others have found out (ie. Dempsey & lets not forget Jason Smith - not good enough for Quinn, but good enough to be the Captain of the Oilers), if Quinn doesn't like you, you are toast in Toronto. The trade in this respect is very good for Jackman. Who knows, maybe the Pens will move to Winnipeg in the next few years.
You gotta feel for Jackman. He is a decent player, but as others have found out (ie. Dempsey & lets not forget Jason Smith - not good enough for Quinn, but good enough to be the Captain of the Oilers), if Quinn doesn't like you, you are toast in Toronto. The trade in this respect is very good for Jackman. Who knows, maybe the Pens will move to Winnipeg in the next few years.
Whoa! I wouldn't REMOTELY compare Jackman with Smith and Dempsey. There's NOTHING to support that comparison, other than perhaps gut feel.
I hope Jackman develops. I doubt he will, but I hope he does. He'll probably get some more ice time in Pittsburgh (although he's played almost HALF the Leaf games this year).
I hope Jackman develops. I doubt he will, but I hope he does. He'll probably get some more ice time in Pittsburgh (although he's played almost HALF the Leaf games this year).
This is an insignificant trade of bottom 3 defensemen. If you read this you'd think Berehowsky was the next coming of Chris Chelios or Scott Stevens and he's not. Jackman was not getting an opportunity to play in Toronto...he'll get that in Pittsburgh for sure and we'll see how he handles it.
If you wanted to you could say Berehowsky's first stint in Toronto was no different than Jackman's, Dempsey's or Smith for that matter. None of them fit in well to the system they were running and jackman and berehowsky were both young/inexperienced guys who could make the full-time line-up.
What it comes down to is that this is not the deal that will bring the cup to Toronto so it doesn't deserve this kind of analysis.
If you wanted to you could say Berehowsky's first stint in Toronto was no different than Jackman's, Dempsey's or Smith for that matter. None of them fit in well to the system they were running and jackman and berehowsky were both young/inexperienced guys who could make the full-time line-up.
What it comes down to is that this is not the deal that will bring the cup to Toronto so it doesn't deserve this kind of analysis.
Who said Berehowsky was as good as Stevens or Chelios?!?! My position is that JACKMAN was BAD.
Also, your statement "Jackman was not getting an opportunity to play in Toronto" is not very accurate. He's played over half the Leaf games this season, and played a similar number last year.
As for "bottom three defensemen", not too many teams have three guys who can play thirty minutes a game, so one or two of those "bottom three" might actually have to be able to play. Drake fits the bill.
Do you want me to pull the stats for those other guys you're comparing with Jackman? I did so for Dempsey already, so please look at some of the previous posts. There is NO COMPARISON between Jackman's stint and Smith's or Dempsey's.
As for "it doesn't deserve this kind of analysis", I'll back up any statement I make with FACT, thank you very much, and I'LL decide how much "analysis" I'd like to apply.
If you don't like the trade, just say so. Nobody in here is claiming that Drake is Chelios or Stevens. Nobody in here is claiming that this move is going to bring the Cup to Toronto. In fact, we're claiming that this is NOT the case. One of my points was that this was a small move. If this is the only move they make, feel free to criticize. But, at least do so in a fair manner.
Sheesh.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Also, your statement "Jackman was not getting an opportunity to play in Toronto" is not very accurate. He's played over half the Leaf games this season, and played a similar number last year.
As for "bottom three defensemen", not too many teams have three guys who can play thirty minutes a game, so one or two of those "bottom three" might actually have to be able to play. Drake fits the bill.
Do you want me to pull the stats for those other guys you're comparing with Jackman? I did so for Dempsey already, so please look at some of the previous posts. There is NO COMPARISON between Jackman's stint and Smith's or Dempsey's.
As for "it doesn't deserve this kind of analysis", I'll back up any statement I make with FACT, thank you very much, and I'LL decide how much "analysis" I'd like to apply.
If you don't like the trade, just say so. Nobody in here is claiming that Drake is Chelios or Stevens. Nobody in here is claiming that this move is going to bring the Cup to Toronto. In fact, we're claiming that this is NOT the case. One of my points was that this was a small move. If this is the only move they make, feel free to criticize. But, at least do so in a fair manner.
Sheesh.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Dude, I've read most of the posts and I'm not criticizing... I'm just saying that based on the fact that there's 6 pages of posts on the merits of Berehowsky and Jackman you'd think the Leafs just traded McCabe or Kaberle for Eric Brewer or Ed Jovanowski.
Pittsburgh is a bad team. It's not a team of good players playing bad, it's just a bad team. For the most part, orther than lemieux, it's a team of minor league players. Berehowsky fits right in on that team as will jackman so it's probably a fair trade given there is still some opportunity for Jackman to prove himself in pittsburgh and berehowsky to play a minor role and add some depth in Toronto for however long his career lasts, which probably won't be too long.
The only criticism I have is why the heck The Doctor even started this thread for such an insignificant trade. Is this what we're faced with until the next meaningful regular season game?
Pittsburgh is a bad team. It's not a team of good players playing bad, it's just a bad team. For the most part, orther than lemieux, it's a team of minor league players. Berehowsky fits right in on that team as will jackman so it's probably a fair trade given there is still some opportunity for Jackman to prove himself in pittsburgh and berehowsky to play a minor role and add some depth in Toronto for however long his career lasts, which probably won't be too long.
The only criticism I have is why the heck The Doctor even started this thread for such an insignificant trade. Is this what we're faced with until the next meaningful regular season game?
Well, welcome to Toronto, where the NHL is king! Why not talk about trades? You got something better to do? A lot of the posts are mine, as I felt that there was a lot of misunderstanding on the merits of Jackman, some bemoaning of the GM's accomplishments, and some comparisons with past Leaf prospects which were unfair.
Berehowsky's played for other teams, too - lots, in fact - he qualifies as a first class journeyman. That fact alone makes him NOT a minor league player, though. He's had a long NHL career to this point, and will play at least a few more seasons. Odds are, he'll still be playing when Jackman's done - I'd bet that, anyway.
And, dude, not every trade has to bring you a Norris winner to be a significant move. Teams make far more trades to shore up their depth than their top tier of talent. Stanley Cup teams are built on a succession of good moves. One trade won't bring the Cup anywhere, whether it's for Berehowsky or Lidstrom.
A lot of the posts are mine, as I felt that there was a lot of misunderstanding on the merits of Jackman, some bemoaning of the GM's accomplishments, and some comparisons with past Leaf prospects which were unfair.Berehowsky's played for other teams, too - lots, in fact - he qualifies as a first class journeyman. That fact alone makes him NOT a minor league player, though. He's had a long NHL career to this point, and will play at least a few more seasons. Odds are, he'll still be playing when Jackman's done - I'd bet that, anyway.
And, dude, not every trade has to bring you a Norris winner to be a significant move. Teams make far more trades to shore up their depth than their top tier of talent. Stanley Cup teams are built on a succession of good moves. One trade won't bring the Cup anywhere, whether it's for Berehowsky or Lidstrom.
