The Leafs Acquire Berehowsky...Again

[pistol]

jackman/berehowsky

The trouble young players, particularly d-men have with the Leafs is their need for immediate gratification. Young players make mistakes. The leaf brass (Quinn) realize they've have built this team to win now, not in 2 -3 years. This is why we see the steady stream of young players leaving Toronto, including Berehowsky himself years ago. It is an organizational decision. Quinn has repeatedly said he'd like to build up the farm system with young players, but has given in to temption frequently by packaging up youngsters and picks for proven vets ie McCauley/Boyes and a pick for Nolan. No one in their right mind disputes Nolan's value, but how long can you survive doing this?
Had someone suggested dealing Cola in Sept. leaf fans would have had a collective stroke. He was seen as the 2nd coming of Bobby Orr. Now, with deadline day approaching and Cup fever in full bloom people offer up he and Antropov, probably the 2 best young players left in Toronto's system (no disrepect to Stajan intended) like they were yesterday's bread?
As for Berehowsky, look at the Pens webpage. Many of his goals/assists came on the PP where he will not play ahead of McCabe, Kaberle, Klee and Pilar. On PK he was 4th amoung Pens d-men in time played? He will not get special teams minutes.
I have no trouble dealing Jackman. He didn't fit with the team's plan and was unhappy. Still, even his distractors like his skating, puck handling and physical play. He has more upside than Berehowsky at this point and would have more valuable as part of a larger package to secure the top end d-man the Leafs need to win. Who/what will be sacrificed to acquire that player?

 

[Ranger68]

I agree with much of what you've said.

I think they have, in the past, continually given up on younger players who didn't produce quickly. Trading Colaiacovo wouldn't be a good move. Nolan for MacCauley? Not so sure. Anyone who thinks Colaiacovo's Bobby Orr should probably take a deep breath, anyway.

Yes, a lot of Drake's points came on the power play. I figure he'll play ahead of all Leafs D except McCabe and Kaberle - he'll be a second-line point man with Klee. I don't expect his PP time to drop *dramatically*. He's a fourth D in all respects - deserving to play ahead of Berg and Marchment, probably.

I disagree with your analysis of Jackman, and the stats don't back you up. He's 25. He's had lots of ice time over the last two years, and has not developed at all. If his skating, puck handling, and physical play were all so good, how come his plus-minus was so AGGREGIOUSLY bad? I don't think Jackman has much of an upside at all. Even taking into account Drake's play on the PP, he STILL has more points than Jackman - his play *right now* is better. Richard had very little trade value, and the Leafs got about all they could for him - a veteran, journeyman defenseman with some offensive skills.

Look, here's the deal with Jackman. On a gut level, I liked him - I liked his aggressive play, and the fact that he hit a fair bit. The problem with gut instincts is that they're quite often wrong. The numbers tell the sorry tale that, whenever Rick played, the Leafs were a crappy team -- -21 in more than 70 games. He really couldn't skate very well and had trouble handling the puck. His assets were physical play and shooting ability. Unfortunately, those HAVEN'T translated into much improvement over two seasons of play at an age where a player who's going to turn into something should be showing improvement.

If the Leafs want to trade, they'll use Pilar, perhaps Bell, maybe even Antropov, Berg, Ponikarovsky. It's not going to take much.

They are, clearly, willing to give up some of the future for a shot at winning now. It's perhaps unfortunate that they seem to be perpetually in that state.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

Don't know if anyone's said it yet, but...

"Gotta love the Drake!"

</Seinfeld>

 

[pistol]

jackman/berehowsky

Ranger the problem for Jackman and guys like him is a consistant role and playing time. He was in a bad spot in Toronto. McCabe, Klee and Kaberle are the top 3 at this point, and clearly he wasn't about to displace any of them. As someone pointed out, when Pilar returned Jackman was pushed out of the rotation. Berg/Marchment/Belak fill the 5-6-7 slots where Quinn physical play and some toughness. Jackman played physially and wasn't afraid to get dirty, but he is too high risk. His skills as more suited to the offensive side of the game. He'll make the pass up the middle or join the rush rather firing the puck around the boards to safety.
Don't be surprised to see returned to Toronto in say 2008-09 by then he'll have reached the correct level or maturity to suit the Leafs requrements.
The bottom line this conversation wouldn't be happening had thwey given Wesley his $2.5M last summer. Having just given up a 2nd round pick for him, the Leafs let him go for what amounts to chump change in the NHL these days and are now going to sacrifice more future to get him or someone like him back. That's brutal mis-management of assets!

 

[Ranger68]

McCabe, Klee and Kaberle still leave, what 48 odd minutes of playing time for other defensemen. The problem wasn't that Jackman couldn't crack into those guys' ice times, it was that he couldn't crack into the REST of the ice times - that is, that Berg, Marchment, and Pilar consistently outplayed him. And that's not good.

Glen Wesley ain't worth 2.5 mil, in my estimation. But, you're running into a contradiction in your arguments - you want the Leafs to sign very mediocre older players to big contracts, but you're upset when younger guys are sacrificed? If Wesley was signed, what young D was going to develop? At least they gave Jackman a shot. ....

I'll say this one more time - Jackman got LOADS of ice time over the last two years. He failed to distinguish himself, except as being NOWHERE NEAR READY TO PLAY.
I most definitely WILL be surprised if Jackman's still playing in 2008-09. And THAT'S the bottom line.

 

[hedway]

Only in Toronto would there be this much to do about a defenceman who is 7th or 8th on the depth chart.

 

[JeremytheWicked]

Only in Toronto would hockey talk override sex on TERB!

 

[pistol]

Ranger my point is you gave up a 2nd for Wesley, kept him through the playoffs. Let him go over a few $. Whether he is worth $2.5M is questionable, but I could suggest that about several guys on the roster, so could you depending on what perspective you take.
But now, the Leafs are going go get Wesley, Gonchar whoever and sacrifice another young player, unfortunately it sounds like it may be Cola which is to bad.
Jackman would have been well served PLAYING on the rock rather than sitting in Toronto. Having wesley would have allowed that to occur. This is how other teams develop players.

 

[Ranger68]

I see all your points.

However, I wouldn't advocate getting Wesley back. JUST Gonchar. And I would advocate that whether or not they'd kept Wesley last year. And I wouldn't have been too bothered sending Jackman away (from full-time playing in the AHL) to get another defenseman.

I doubt they'll give up Colaiacovo to get Gonchar, and certainly not for Wesley. If they do the latter, I'll be on complaining. If they do the former, and fail to win the Cup or retain Sergei, it will have been a bad move to say the least. But Gonchar's arguably the best offensive defenseman of the last five years - guys like this don't grow on trees. If it costs them to get him, fine.

Jackman played half a season here. How was he so deprived of ice time? How was he "sitting in Toronto"? I'd say it's pretty damn close as to how useful it is for a young, developing player to play half time at the NHL level, rather than full time in the AHL. Jackman wasn't playing one and sitting three. He was playing HALF their games. LOTS of NHL teams develop youngsters this way. It's only *very* recently that he'd been sitting for significant periods. Early in the season, he was a fixture. And he did nothing.

Look, if a player's a true blue chip, bona fide prospect, you've gotta give him time to work at the NHL level - he needs to learn the game, and you have to suffer through some period of this. Jackman wasn't a blue-chipper, he was almost 26, and wasn't showing any signs of getting better. Cutting bait was a reasonable action at that point, especially since they got a 400 game veteran defenseman back.

Oh, and Jeremy? I see *you're* posting in this thread. .....

 

[JeremytheWicked]

Don't get me wrong, Ranger ... I wasn't criticizing.

Just pointing and laughing.

I participate and don't feel guilty at all...

 

[Ranger68]

This is what the Lounge is for, after all.
And, last time I checked, this WAS Canada!
..... Isn't it? .....

 

[kwong_1978]

Ranger

Funny,

I thought your handle meant you are a big fan of either the New York or Texas Rangers. Guess I was wrong.

 

[ToronToto]

[Jackman] is a decent player, but as others have found out (ie. Dempsey & lets not forget Jason Smith - not good enough for Quinn, but good enough to be the Captain of the Oilers), if Quinn doesn't like you, you are toast in Toronto. The trade in this respect is very good for Jackman.

Great point here. I think Jackman could turn-out to be like Jason Smith. He'll have more responsibility and become a good player in a couple of years.

 

[Mudd Stuffin]

Ranger,

I was not comparing Jackman to Dempsey or Smith (take another read). I was just saying that Jackman was in the same predicament as Smith and Dempsey - Quinn doesn't/didn't like any of them. Smith is a real solid player - but obviously he didn't lick Quinn's butt like Jonas Hoglund must have to stick around so long. All, I said was, that if Quinn doesn't like ya, the player is toast, no matter how good they are.

And no I am not now comparing Jonas Hoglund to any of these guys...LOL. Jonas belongs in a european women's league.

 

[Ranger68]

Okay, I hear ya. But, IMO, Quinn was very justified in his dislike of Jackman, not so much of Dempsey and Smith.

And I think we can all agree on Hoglund.

 

[shredder]

Bang on!

I was not comparing Jackman to Dempsey or Smith (take another read). I was just saying that Jackman was in the same predicament as Smith and Dempsey - Quinn doesn't/didn't like any of them. Smith is a real solid player - but obviously he didn't lick Quinn's butt like Jonas Hoglund must have to stick around so long. All, I said was, that if Quinn doesn't like ya, the player is toast, no matter how good they are.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Actually I think Hoglund had pictures