The First Attack: 9/11 WTC sub-level explosions

Ulan Bator

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Here is an interesting link that indicates even military brass were wondering how the hell the entire North American defense grid failed so miserably on 9/11. Note how even 9/11 commission investigators were concerned about possible perjury from defense officials on this issue but nothing was done because Zelikow 'buried' it.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4741.shtml
 

fuji

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Ulan Bator said:
Looks like you got it all figured out. Are you saying that witnesses at the scene who heard explosions, firemen even, all got it wrong?
I am saying what I wrote. You might try reading it again.

I am pointing out that the blast would have travelled through the core of the building and seemed like an explosion coming from the elevators on many floors. It may have been particularly strong in the sub-basement.

Look at video of the impact. The fireball that explodes from the building in the horizontal plane is huge. That same fireball would have travelled even further up and down the confined shafts in the center of the building. The pressure wave would have burst out with significant blast force on many floors.

That version is consistent with the damage observed on MULTIPLE floors--for example in the lobby. The notion that it was a bomb in the basement is not consistent with the observation of a blast coming from the elevators on other floors, like the lobby.

In other words I believe that the witnesses saw and experienced what they say they did. I do not believe their INTERPRETATION that it was a bomb. It is much more plausible that it was the shock wave from the plane impact exploding out from the elevator shafts that they experienced.
 

fuji

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Mcluhan said:
Same to you bud, same to you.
You've had quite a long break. Did you manage to find that peer reviewed journal article? Or are you still relying on the fake stuff?
 

onthebottom

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fuji said:
I am saying what I wrote. You might try reading it again.

I am pointing out that the blast would have travelled through the core of the building and seemed like an explosion coming from the elevators on many floors. It may have been particularly strong in the sub-basement.

Look at video of the impact. The fireball that explodes from the building in the horizontal plane is huge. That same fireball would have travelled even further up and down the confined shafts in the center of the building. The pressure wave would have burst out with significant blast force on many floors.

That version is consistent with the damage observed on MULTIPLE floors--for example in the lobby. The notion that it was a bomb in the basement is not consistent with the observation of a blast coming from the elevators on other floors, like the lobby.

In other words I believe that the witnesses saw and experienced what they say they did. I do not believe their INTERPRETATION that it was a bomb. It is much more plausible that it was the shock wave from the plane impact exploding out from the elevator shafts that they experienced.
I respect your tenacity in playing whack a mole with these idiots..... I don't know where you find the energy.

OTB
 

hickorysticks

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I absolutely believe that we've been lied to by the American Government. There are reports after reports of both eye witnesses and professionals in architecture and building whom say it just isin't possible for planes crashing into the top of buildings such as the World Trade Centre, to cause the towers to come crashing down as though they had been professionally demolished. How is it, that on the day the "terrorist" planes went off course, not one, not two, but THREE planes were missed by government appointed jet fighters whom have been trained to gun down a plane for exactly that scenario? Not one fighter was in the "area" as all had been ordered to do training exercises in other parts of the country- on September 11th... coincidence? There are documentaries that are banned in Canada with overwhelming evidence, both government and citizen, which prove September 11th was a strategic political move... by top officials in the US GOVERNMENT! Not al-Qaeda terrorists. There's more to the story than we've been spoon-fed to believe.
 
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fuji

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hickorysticks said:
There are reports after reports of both eye witnesses and professionals in architecture and building whom say it just isin't possible for a plane crashing into the top a building such as the Twin Towers, to cause them to come crashing down as though it had been professionally demolished.
You have been lied to. There are no such reports. Prove me wrong--provide me with even ONE report written by a professional in his or her area of expertise and published in a credible journal.

I will settle for ONE.

So far when I have asked for this what I have got in response are reports written by people talking out of their ass--like doctors pretending to be engineers, and others writing way outside their area of expertise.

The closest we have come is an article purporting to show there was thermite but it was published in a fraudulent journal without appropriate peer review. Nothing credible has ever been forthcoming when I have asked--and I have asked repeatedly.

Since you say you have seen 'report after report' you ought not to have trouble coming up with ONE report.

How is it that the way the buildings went down is akin to a building being professionally demolished?
It didn't.

How it is, that on the day the "terrorist" planes went off course, not one, not two, but THREE planes were missed by government appointed jet fighters whom have been trained to gun down a plane for exactly that scenario?
Can you cite this training? I am not aware of it. Military fighters are not in the habit of shooting down commercial jets in the United States. No-one had ever previously carried out an attack like this--the previous expectation was that hijaackers would blow their planes up, not turn them into missiles.

I think you have been lied to by people like Mac. Mac is the worst because he has been shown that his information is fraudulent and yet he persists in pushing it on other unsuspecting people.
 

onthebottom

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Another mole to whack.....

OTB
 

fuji

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hickorysticks said:
No fugi, I won't do your research for you.
I have done my research and the conclusion is that the only people who claim there was a "controlled demolition" or other variations on the conspiracy are amateurs who have no expertise and no credibility on the matter.

I'm going to be sympathetic with you a little while longer, realizing that you have probably been lied to, and that it's a bit difficult to swallow that you have been. If after having had the truth of this pointed out to you, you persist in making bizarre claims then I'll come to hold you in the sort of contempt I hold for Macluhan. So far, though, I am viewing you as a victim of other people's fraud.

So here is a friendly bit of advice:

Go recheck that "reserach". Look into the "credentials" that the people who wrote that stuff have. You will find they are all writing outside their own field of expertise--they are doctors writing about engineering, chemical engineers writing about structural engineering, and so on.

I spent some considerable time researching this as part of the debate I had earlier with Mac and after sifting through loads of this rubbish I came to the educated, informed conclusion that there is not ONE, not even ONE single shred of expert opinion published anywhere which substantiates any of this bullshit conspiracy.

Your turn my friend.

It's common knowledge of the Military Jet fighters whom were trained for terroists attacks almost identical to the planes flying into the World Trade Centre/Pentagon.
While I'm sure that the military is more than capable of shooting down a jet fighter it is completely credible that the FAA and others did not realize the intent of the hijaackers until after they slammed into the WTC--assuming that they even knew there were hijaackers before that.
 

Ulan Bator

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I advise anyone who believes what really happened not to bother trying to change this man's (Fuji's) mind. No matter what 'proof' you may have, who your source is or how logical or factual their argument, he will accept nothing. Even if Albert Einstein posited a reason for the collapse of WTC 7 for instance, this man would find an excuse to refute it.

He will dispute anyone's credentials, judge them according to his own peculiar criteria....anything to force his version to fit the facts.

Its a waste of time bothering. Truth seekers need only to remember a few things:

a) A hit like this took years to prepare and execute. The thermite used to destroy the twin towers, evident in the smoke and fires and in the debris, was placed in the towers very carefully and slowly, it was not something done over a weekend. Kroll Associates, owned by a dual Israeli American citizen and who were in charge of security were very careful in this respect so that no suspicion was aroused.

b) There is still no plausible explanation as to why the center core of the twin towers gave way. Fire from jet fuel as well as impact shock would be insufficient to make the entire structure collapse the way it did. The fact that Stephan Kaufmann, a dual Israeli/American had a hand in the preparation of the NIST report is sufficient to doubt its impartiality.

c) The software use in most of the defense department's computers necessary to scramble jets in case of an attack like that on 9/11 came from PTECH, an Israeli company and Mossad front.

d) Experts are, in fact, trying to speak out but they risk ruining their reputations and being labelled cranks. The controlled media will make sure that, through smearing and distortion of fact, any point of view deviating from what has been dictated to the masses will not be heard, or, if it is, will be ridiculed and dismissed.

e) The fact that millions of dollars worth of put options were placed on selected airline stocks in the days leading up to the attack and that no investigation has been made to track who exactly purchased these options.

f) That the source of the two hour advanced warning put out over the Israeli 'Odigo' Messenging Service was never investigated.

Finally, no one can deny that the actions of the following individuals were very suspicious indeed:

i) The dancing Israelis who were in fact Mossad agents there to 'record' what happened.
ii) Larry Silverstein, who leased the WTC from the NY Port Authority only weeks before the hit and, magically, did not show up for his usual breakfast at the top of the South Tower the day of the attack, nor did his daughter.
iii) George Bush, who lied about seeing the first hit live on a television station when such a broadcast never took place.
iv) Dick Cheney, who put himself in charge of defensive procedures on 9/11 and told operators to 'stand down' even though one of the jets was clearly advancing on the pentagon.
v) The Project for a New American Century which stated that only a galvanizing event, like a new Pearl Harbour, will motivate Americans to declare war on 'terrorists' and the fact that almost all the authors of this 'project' had positions of responsibility in the Bush Administration.

I will not get into an argument over the physics of this attack but one thing is obvious. Any who dispute the party line are always, to a man, attacked as nuts, crazies or terrorist sympathizers. Would it not be more prudent to have another (impartial) investigation into everything that went on on September 11?

I have always wondered why the powers that be refuse to defuse the arguments of the 'conspiracy theorists' in this way. What are they afraid of? Money for a new investigation is certainly not a problem. Plenty was available for Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and JP Morgan but, then again, they're part of the cabal that rules America anyways, aren't they......
 

papasmerf

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Ulan Bator said:
I advise anyone who believes what really happened not to bother trying to change this man's (Fuji's) mind. No matter what 'proof' you may have, who your source is or how logical or factual their argument, he will accept nothing. Even if Albert Einstein posited a reason for the collapse of WTC 7 for instance, this man would find an excuse to refute it.

He will dispute anyone's credentials, judge them according to his own peculiar criteria....anything to force his version to fit the facts.

Its a waste of time bothering. Truth seekers need only to remember a few things:

a) A hit like this took years to prepare and execute. The thermite used to destroy the twin towers, evident in the smoke and fires and in the debris, was placed in the towers very carefully and slowly, it was not something done over a weekend. Kroll Associates, owned by a dual Israeli American citizen and who were in charge of security were very careful in this respect so that no suspicion was aroused.

b) There is still no plausible explanation as to why the center core of the twin towers gave way. Fire from jet fuel as well as impact shock would be insufficient to make the entire structure collapse the way it did. The fact that Stephan Kaufmann, a dual Israeli/American had a hand in the preparation of the NIST report is sufficient to doubt its impartiality.

c) The software use in most of the defense department's computers necessary to scramble jets in case of an attack like that on 9/11 came from PTECH, an Israeli company and Mossad front.

d) Experts are, in fact, trying to speak out but they risk ruining their reputations and being labelled cranks. The controlled media will make sure that, through smearing and distortion of fact, any point of view deviating from what has been dictated to the masses will not be heard, or, if it is, will be ridiculed and dismissed.

e) The fact that millions of dollars worth of put options were placed on selected airline stocks in the days leading up to the attack and that no investigation has been made to track who exactly purchased these options.

f) That the source of the two hour advanced warning put out over the Israeli 'Odigo' Messenging Service was never investigated.

Finally, no one can deny that the actions of the following individuals were very suspicious indeed:

i) The dancing Israelis who were in fact Mossed agents there to 'record' what happened.
ii) Larry Silverstein, who leased the WTC from the NY Port Authority only weeks before the hit and, magically, did not show up for his usual breakfast at the top of the South Tower the day of the attack, nor did his daughter.
iii) George Bush, who lied about seeing the first hit live on a television station when such a broadcast never took place.
iv) Dick Cheney, who put himself in charge of defensive procedures on 9/11 and told operators to 'stand down' even though one of the jets was advancing nearer and nearer to the pentagon.
v) The Project for a New American Century which stated that only a galvanizing event, like a new Pearl Harbour, will motivate Americans to declare war on 'terrorists' and the fact that almost all the authors of this 'project' had positions of responsibility in the Bush Administration.

I will not get into an argument over the physics of this attack but one thing is obvious. Any who dispute the party line are always, to a man, attacked as nuts, crazies or terrorist sympathizers. The easiest way to deal with them, besides smearing or ridiculing them into silence. It is so much easier than simply having another (impartial) investigation into everything that went on on September 11.

I have always wondered why the powers that be refuse to defuse the arguments of the 'conspiracy theorists' in this way? What are they afraid of? Money for a new investigation is certainly not a problem. Plenty was available for Goldman Sachs, Citigroup and JP Morgan but, then again, they're part of the cabal that rules America anyways, aren't they......


Will someone please bury this poor horse.
 

Asterix

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For our conspiracy friends. Found this site amusing in how it addresses the various theories. May take a while for some of the photos to download.


http://www.layscience.net/node/124
 

fuji

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Ulan Bator said:
No matter what 'proof' you may have, who your source is or how logical or factual their argument, he will accept nothing.
It's good you put the word proof in quotes, that is fitting for what has been presented here by you guys as 'proof'.

My criteria is pretty simple: An article published in a well respected academic journal by an expert writing in their area of expertise.

Find one. Just one.

He will dispute anyone's credentials, judge them according to his own peculiar criteria....anything to force his version to fit the facts.
No I won't and you can't cite a single instance of me doing that. You are completely full of shit.

I have disputed on these threads, for example, that a physician is competent to talk about structural engineering. Neither you nor Mac have ever yet presented a competent expert publishing in a well respected journal.

You can take your toys and go home if you like but you can't change that fact.

Really.
 

realthing69

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Ulan Bator said:
b) There is still no plausible explanation as to why the center core of the twin towers gave way. Fire from jet fuel as well as impact shock would be insufficient to make the entire structure collapse the way it did. The fact that Stephan Kaufmann, a dual Israeli/American had a hand in the preparation of the NIST report is sufficient to doubt its impartiality.
Sure there was an explanation...the architect of the WTC admitted the design of the WTC building led to the "pancaking" of the floors thus causing an implosion.

It was designed to withstand a small plane crashing into the building. The architect never imagined a commercial airplane crashing into it back in the 70's. He was surprised that the WTC buildings survived the crash of a commercial airplanes. But it was the fire (with tonnes of jet fuel and other accellerants) that weakened the steel "joints" as well as causing the steal to expand which eventually led to the collapse. These "angle clips" were the only things supporting the floor joists (basically there was nothing in the middle to support the floor joists).
 

Ulan Bator

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fuji said:
It's good you put the word proof in quotes, that is fitting for what has been presented here by you guys as 'proof'.

My criteria is pretty simple: An article published in a well respected academic journal by an expert writing in their area of expertise.

Find one. Just one.



No I won't and you can't cite a single instance of me doing that. You are completely full of shit.

I have disputed on these threads, for example, that a physician is competent to talk about structural engineering. Neither you nor Mac have ever yet presented a competent expert publishing in a well respected journal.

You can take your toys and go home if you like but you can't change that fact.

Really.
I find it interesting that none of you have addressed my other points. Obviously, your specialty is to nitpick over every single bit of minutia over number of explosions, where they took place, free fall speeds, shock waves..........In fact, in the overall scheme of things, how the attacks were carried out and who the hijackers were or were not is irrelevent. You do not appear to understand this since you do not address any of the other salient points I have made.

It is shocking how otherwise intelligent people will believe the lies of the Bush Administration. Here was a regime with the motive and the means to carry out the attacks of 9/11. Would a regime that is willing to launch an illegal and aggressive premediated attack on a country and kill, directly or indirectly 500,000 of its citizens shrink from murdering 3000 of its own people to do so?

I think not.

The regime of GWB was clearly, absolutely and undeniably a regime of criminals who violated the constitution they had sworn an oath to defend with an arrogant impunity that is truly breath-taking. This is a regime who freely violated the Geneva Convention, illegally imprisoned and tortured people not even charged with a crime, gave themselves retroactive immunity for such crimes committed, attacked another country - Afganistan and, now, perhaps even Pakistan as well and repeatedly threatened with attack another country, Iran.

And, of interest, what is the basis for these threats against Iran? A lie of course - one of the greatest of the 21st Century. The lie that the President of Iran wanted to 'wipe Israel off the map' which any nincompoop who knows Farsi will tell you that is not what the man said. Yet it was on this basis, Hillary Clinton threatened to 'obliterate' that nation. Such is the criminality of America.

And no Mr. Fuji or Fujito or whatever your name is. This is not shit. Maybe for people like you it is who are gullible or fanatically determined to ram your heads up George Bush's ass. I suppose you would also have just as fanatically endorsed Stalin's own 'investigation' of the Katyn Massacre which provided a slew of pseudo-scientific arguments explaining that it was in fact the Germans who killed all those Polish soldiers. No doubt you would have defended his investigation just as vociferously as you do George Bush's.
 

Asterix

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Ulan Bator said:
I find it interesting that none of you have addressed my other points. Obviously, your specialty is to nitpick over every single bit of minutia over number of explosions, where they took place, free fall speeds, shock waves..........Yet you do not address the salient points I have made.
What salient points?
 

fuji

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Ulan Bator said:
a) A hit like this took years to prepare and execute.
Thereby invalidating your claim that it was the regime of GwB that did it?

The thermite used to destroy the twin towers, evident in the smoke and fires and in the debris
There is no credible evidence of any thermite.

, was placed in the towers very carefully and slowly, it was not something done over a weekend.
Thermite would anyway be a poor choice of material to bring down the building as you would need MASSIVE quantities of it. Not just a few little packets here and there--go do some research on just how much thermite is required to eat through an I-beam. We are talking a meter thick of thermite.

Unless of course the I-beam is under tremendous stress due to the floor warping in as jet fuel melts it, but wait.. that's the official explanation.

b) There is still no plausible explanation as to why the center core of the twin towers gave way.
Yes there is. It's in the published report. It's plausible.

Fire from jet fuel as well as impact shock would be insufficient to make the entire structure collapse the way it did.


It absolutely would be. It warped the floors causing pressure on the outside structure which was already weakened by the impact. The impact wall gave way first and the whole thing goes down.

c) The software use in most of the defense department's computers necessary to scramble jets in case of an attack like that on 9/11 came from PTECH, an Israeli company and Mossad front.
Nobody in the FAA or airforce had any idea they would need to scramble jets because nobody had any idea the jets would be used to crash into buildings until it actually happened.

d) Experts are, in fact, trying to speak out but they risk ruining their reputations and being labelled cranks.
No experts whatsoever have spoken out. Find one, just one, who has published in their area of expertise in a respectable journal.

There simply aren't any.

The controlled media will make sure that, through smearing and distortion of fact, any point of view deviating from what has been dictated to the masses will not be heard, or, if it is, will be ridiculed and dismissed.
There are two ways to respond to this:

a) It's an admission that nobody of any credibility has spoken out, and that all of your other reports are bullshit written by non-experts

and

b) It's ridiculous. You'd think at least one of these people would have tenure.

e) The fact that millions of dollars worth of put options were placed on selected airline stocks in the days leading up to the attack and that no investigation has been made to track who exactly purchased these options.
If it's true, which you haven't established in ANY way, then it could have been Al Qaeda placing the bets, no?

f) That the source of the two hour advanced warning put out over the Israeli 'Odigo' Messenging Service was never investigated.
How do you know?

Finally, no one can deny that the actions of the following individuals were very suspicious indeed:
A bunch of weird speculation. Some guy doesn't go to breakfast and it becomes "magical" instead of "lucky", etc., and crap about a president who was not even in power long enough to be involved in the conspiracy as you described it.

I call bullshit.

I will not get into an argument over the physics of this attack
You tried to get into that argument and you withdrew from it because you lost that argument.

but one thing is obvious. Any who dispute the party line are always, to a man, attacked as nuts, crazies or terrorist sympathizers. Would it not be more prudent to have another (impartial) investigation into everything that went on on September 11?
Find me one published expert in a credible journal and I won't call you crazy.

I have always wondered why the powers that be refuse to defuse the arguments of the 'conspiracy theorists' in this way.
They DID. The commission was open and transparent and staffed by hundreds of people who had no connection whatsoever to the government. They published an open and transparent report on what happened and it is plausible, backed up by respected experts, open, and public.

The rumours persist because, quite frankly, there ARE stupid, crazy people in the world who wouldn't recognize the truth if it up and bit them.

....

I did not go through this before because I figured it was enough to point out that you are a charlatan for not having a single published article backing up any of your bullshit.

However you asked for a bitch-slap, and now you've got one.
 

onthebottom

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Another conspiracy muppet that's been served......

OTB
 

WoodPeckr

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onthebottom said:
Another conspiracy muppet that's been served......

OTB
A typical smug remark, no?....:D
 

basketcase

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Ulan Bator said:
I advise anyone who believes what really happened not to bother trying to change this man's (Fuji's) mind. No matter what 'proof' you may have, who your source is or how logical or factual their argument, he will accept nothing. Even if Albert Einstein posited a reason for the collapse of WTC 7 for instance, this man would find an excuse to refute it.
...
Funniest thing I've read all day. A guy full of (racist) conspiracy with no fact trying to claim that he's provided proof.

Your conjecture is no where near any proof.

Just some simple examples:

conspiracy nut said:
Kroll Associates, owned by a dual Israeli American citizen and who were in charge of security were very careful in this respect so that no suspicion was aroused.
Before being acquired by Marsh & McLennan Companies, Kroll was a publicly traded company, not owned by a ‘dual-citizen’ which I assume is your racist code for Jew.

racistconspiracy nut said:
The fact that Stephan Kaufmann, a dual Israeli/American had a hand in the preparation of the NIST report is sufficient to doubt its impartiality.
Too bad that Kaufmann is solely American http://www.nndb.com/people/242/000168735/

cluelessracistconspiracynut said:
c) The software use in most of the defense department's computers necessary to scramble jets in case of an attack like that on 9/11 came from PTECH, an Israeli company and Mossad front.
It's really strange that PTECH seems to be deeply connected with Saudis/Arabs as founders, executives, source of funds and not the Israeli company you claim. Really don't know the credibility of this site but it's at least as good as any posted here. http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=ptech_inc.


I would go on but your first three bits of 'proof' really rip apart your own arguments and exposes you as the single minded racist you are.
 
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